[Anime] Tokyo Ghoul

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Finally, caught up with this anime. And while the censoring are as annoying as always, things are getting interesting.

Spoiler:
That French gourmet guy has serious fetish issues. I wonder how can you eat someone while he's eating someone. Though he's pretty entertaining. He reminds me of Caster from Fate/Zero in some ways. Looking forward to the fight between him and Touka. Also looking forward to seeing Kaneki's mask in future episodes as well.
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Noooooo the people watching the anime won't get to see Kaneki's gasm face. Seriously though the manga is pretty good, would highly recommend it.
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WideEyedMan wrote...
Noooooo the people watching the anime won't get to see Kaneki's gasm face. Seriously though the manga is pretty good, would highly recommend it.


Highly?

I think people should read the manga! The characters are more fleshed out since the anime skips most of the talking parts and going directly to the action scenes. They even have Gourmet and Jason appear a bit earlier than expected.
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WideEyedMan wrote...
Noooooo the people watching the anime won't get to see Kaneki's gasm face. Seriously though the manga is pretty good, would highly recommend it.


The manga is VERY good, after dropping the anime out of disappointment I picked up the manga and read every available chapter, it's really good stuff.
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pihip wrote...
it's really good stuff.


Spoiler:
My biggest complaint about the manga is that the manga focuses too much on making Kaneki's change seem positive(with the exception of the recent Centipede chapter), if they put him and other Ghouls too high on a pedestal readers might start adoring ghouls which is counter-intuitive to the theme of "killers with a bit of conscience". What they need to do is go back and remind viewers that Ghouls are the natural enemy of mankind, using deceit and cruelty to satisfy their bestial hunger.

Right now it's following a rather stereotypical action formula by teasing all over the place and thinking too highly of it's self with the rabbit business going on. Character positions are fuzzy what with Shu being a henchman about as distinct as a fernpot right now and Nishio-what EXACTLY is Nishio's purpose? Hinami is just there to die or doomed to be the pet for the rest of the series, there's not really that much there for her currently.


Uzumaki101 wrote...
I think people should read the manga! The characters are more fleshed out since the anime skips most of the talking parts and going directly to the action scenes. They even have Gourmet and Jason appear a bit earlier than expected.


I think Tokyo Ghoul currently only has a few jarring problems: the scene skipping that occurs in the recent episodes where the characters jumped from one scene to the next with little explanation, the horrendous censorship and the potential for the plot to go sour depending on how the next arc comes.

Right now it's giving enough information and conversation to get by which is what an anime can hope for in most cases and the scenes for when Kaneki was battling his hunger or when Shu was obsessing over Kaneki were very well done.

Like I said I'm content with the current state of the anime, going for the Gourmet arc then Dove arc shortly afterwards better organizes things and makes the viewer have to switch gears less between learning about ghouls or learning about CCG or settling in with the characters(it also gives more value to Hinami's character). In my opinion something different is hardly something to fear nor resent, just something to be cautious about.
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WideEyedMan wrote...
pihip wrote...
it's really good stuff.


Spoiler:
My biggest complaint about the manga is that the manga focuses too much on making Kaneki's change seem positive(with the exception of the recent Centipede chapter), if they put him and other Ghouls too high on a pedestal readers might start adoring ghouls which is counter-intuitive to the theme of "killers with a bit of conscience". What they need to do is go back and remind viewers that Ghouls are the natural enemy of mankind, using deceit and cruelty to satisfy their bestial hunger.

Right now it's following a rather stereotypical action formula by teasing all over the place and thinking too highly of it's self with the rabbit business going on. Character positions are fuzzy what with Shu being a henchman about as distinct as a fernpot right now and Nishio-what EXACTLY is Nishio's purpose? Hinami is just there to die or doomed to be the pet for the rest of the series, there's not really that much there for her currently.


Spoiler:
I don't think it's the author trying to make Kaneki's descent to the dark side look 'positive', it's more like he does so a bit too well. I mean, if you go on Batoto you'll notice that everyone and their mother is cheering every time Kaneki goes nuts. It happened with Yamori, it happened with Ayato, it's happening now with Shinohara. And to be honest I'm with them, I wonder if we're just a bunch of sadists.

Also, I think they hammered the 'Ghouls are bad, humanity is good' concept a bit too much, and to be honest I'm fed up of the CCG and fools like Amon who think they're knights of justice while in truth most of them think Ghouls are rabid animals to be put down, no matter who they are or how they behave. Granted, most of them ARE violent animals, but those poor fools who actually try to blend in get kicked the most. Just look at that creep Madou when he targeted Hinami and her family. :/
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The anime has been eh lately so I'll probably only start watching once the Aogiri starts. I swear if they mess it up..
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Spoiler:
Kagune Touka, Mado getting his groove on and more good scenes that were not part of the manga. The doctor wasn't even a character in the manga and they managed to give him some pretty decent cred. Still waiting for it to either crap on itself or turn out decent.


pihip wrote...
Spoiler:
I don't think it's the author trying to make Kaneki's descent to the dark side look 'positive', it's more like he does so a bit too well. I mean, if you go on Batoto you'll notice that everyone and their mother is cheering every time Kaneki goes nuts. It happened with Yamori, it happened with Ayato, it's happening now with Shinohara. And to be honest I'm with them, I wonder if we're just a bunch of sadists.

Also, I think they hammered the 'Ghouls are bad, humanity is good' concept a bit too much, and to be honest I'm fed up of the CCG and fools like Amon who think they're knights of justice while in truth most of them think Ghouls are rabid animals to be put down, no matter who they are or how they behave. Granted, most of them ARE violent animals, but those poor fools who actually try to blend in get kicked the most. Just look at that creep Madou when he targeted Hinami and her family. :/


Spoiler:
Overdoing it is still overdoing it.

Amon is a budding knight of justice, he chose to believe (only to have it shattered) in Kaneki's humanity underneath the Ghoul and fights to protect people from the horrors that he experienced as a child. If there is hope in the CCG it's Amon, but I do not think Amon can change the fact that Ghouls are humanity's enemy. The fools who try to blend in are the ones who get kicked the most because they tried to blend in. They knew the incredible risk and yet tried it anyways. Brave fools, but fools nonetheless. Madou is simply imparting his grief from the past upon innocents, it does not justify his actions but it does give them reason.
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WideEyedMan wrote...
Spoiler:
Overdoing it is still overdoing it.

Amon is a budding knight of justice, he chose to believe (only to have it shattered) in Kaneki's humanity underneath the Ghoul and fights to protect people from the horrors that he experienced as a child. If there is hope in the CCG it's Amon, but I do not think Amon can change the fact that Ghouls are humanity's enemy. The fools who try to blend in are the ones who get kicked the most because they tried to blend in. They knew the incredible risk and yet tried it anyways. Brave fools, but fools nonetheless. Madou is simply imparting his grief from the past upon innocents, it does not justify his actions but it does give them reason.


Spoiler:
>Madou
>grief
>????

Sorry but I really don't remember where and when Kureo Madou expressed any form of grief. If anything, the guy was a complete sadist who thoroughly enjoyed killing ghouls... and I would say yes, he's right because as I said MOST ghouls are indeed rabid animals or dangerous individuals who need to be put down. Key word here is 'most', as Anteiku demonstrates that not every ghoul is a demonic flesh-eating monster.

The CCG however does not discriminate, and they're very open with their hatred of ghouls - though this too is to be expected since guys like Amon were ghoul victims themselves.

Also, calling those ghouls who actually try to live peacefully "fools" doesn't sound right (I notice now that I used that word in my previous post and it feels rude), maybe it's a poor example but it almost sounds like calling a real life peace activist an idiot because their way of thinking is idealistic and naive and won't work because conflict and strife are inherently human.

To wrap this up and stop going off topic, I don't support antagonistic ghouls like those from Aogiri, but I ain't supporting the CCG either. I like to park in the twilight zone, which is probably why Kaneki and his companions are my favourite characters... Tsukiyama aside. :P
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I'm hardly done yet, simply make your demands for this conversation to end clear if that is your wish.

pihip wrote...
Madou


Spoiler:
Madou lost his wife to a ghoul while she working as an investigator. It was very briefly brushed over in one of the recent chapters. I think Madou was probably zealous before that but the hatred of ghouls from her, probably gruesome, death combined with the fear of losing his beloved daughter in the same way he lost his wife spurred him on. Hardly compensates for his sin of doing the same to others.


pihip wrote...
Spoiler:
Anteiku demonstrates that not every ghoul is a demonic flesh-eating monster
.


Spoiler:
It is a pub lead by the strongest of the demonic flesh-eating Ghouls that have had their fair share of hunting human beings, the irony is rich and yet so is the profound humanity within the worst of the bunch. They have sanctioned hunting zones(remember Nishio's dispute with Rize's feeding ground) where Ghouls are allowed to hunt humans. Even then a Ghoul must consume human flesh to survive and even the most passive Ghoul falls victim to hunger. All Ghouls are monsters, the only question is to what extent.


pihip wrote...
Spoiler:
Also, calling those ghouls who actually try to live peacefully "fools" doesn't sound right imho.


Spoiler:
It's a fact. Nishio said that getting close to humans is dangerous and it's true integrating yourself into human society as a Ghoul greatly increases the chances of being discovered by CCG just like Touka's family, just like Nishio's sister, they gambled and lost. Though if the other option was to avoid humans like the plague then I would rather gamble and be a fool to be frank.


pihip wrote...
Spoiler:
"You ghoul. You bad. I human. I kill you." and that's it.


Spoiler:
"You human. You food. I Ghoul. I eat you." I wonder if Hinami knows the name of the delicious human steak on her plate, the weight of his sins, the dreams that he had, the laughs in his life, the sorrow in his life, what sort of suffering he endured and the push that made him take his own life(hell it could have been an accident). Well I'll never know the answer since he's been reduced to mere steak and nothing else.


I wanted to say this earlier, but I think the perfect theme for Tokyo Ghoul to be would be "justified evil". I rather like it.
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WideEyedMan wrote...
stuff


You raise valid arguments, and I appreciate that the debate has been civil so far, but I can't change my mind just because we think differently.

Spoiler:
About Madou, he may have been a good husband and father and a decent dude with his fellow colleagues (Amon crying over his dead body suggests that), but gruesomely killing a mother in front of her daughter with a big grin on his face made me despise the man. That's not grieving, that's lashing out at those weaker than him with sadistic glee. Of course, that's my interpretation of the man, others like you have a different opinion and I won't judge it, though I can at least say that I don't agree.

About the rest, let me try to be honest here.

Ghouls are doomed creatures from the moment they are born - either they give in to their urges and become monsters, or they try to blend into human society at a varying degree, bearing the risk to be discovered, captured and either killed and harvested as raw material for anti-ghoul weapons or imprisoned.

There's also the fact that their distorted senses don't make anything easier: it's human flesh, coffee, and nothing else, because everything else tastes so awful it either leads to vomiting or greatly saps a ghoul's strength. Or both.

Also, more than 'justified evil' (which IMHO applies to the CCG and Anteiku), it feels more like an endless, vicious circle: assuming ghouls started it, they fed on humans, humans retaliated by arming and training themselves to counter this new threat, ghouls retaliated by grouping together and becoming organized and efficient (Aogiri Tree comes to mind), and so on. That those ghouls who actually meant well (for a given amount of 'well') and tried to actually coexist with humans and those humans who only wanted to live their ordinary lives got caught in the circle was the inevitable conclusion.


...and that's it I guess. I don't mind continuing to debate back and forth, but people might be more interested in discussing the anime or more relevant topics about the manga than reading two anons discuss their divergent viewpoints.

PS: One mistake I usually make when debating like this is that I don't clarify that what I write is what I think, not 'what is and should be'. If I did so, then I've been rude and I apologize.
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Spoiler:
Episode 4 didn't really grab me, but 5 and 6 more than made up for that. Touka with her glowing Kagune-wing was just badass. I was kinda worried about the fact that they rearranged the order of some of the events, but it actually works a bit better this way, I think.
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Spoiler:
Forum Image: http://s27.postimg.org/sceeul3sz/Tokyou.jpg
Forum Image: http://s15.postimg.org/d88cyqt23/Tokyou.jpg

My little spawn of satan can't be this sexy...
Spoiler:
I want more Madolings.
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I haven't read the manga yet and I'm enjoying the hell out of the anime, even with the censorship. Depending on how much of a cliffhanger the ending is, I'll check out the manga after the anime is over.
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Amon is such a dick, it's so good.

Spoiler:
For a second there I thought they would skip Hinami's arc after her mother died and was about to give up but they seem to be doing okay. So pretty much the next episode is going to be the turning point of the anime depending on how well Mado and Kaneki do their part. Aogiri arc is going to get four episodes so probably stuff will be cut out.


The soundtrack is so boring, maybe it's just because it's up against stiff competitors like Aldnoah Zero or Zankyou no Terror. Regardless it makes the fight scenes and drama pretty lackluster because I feel like this soundtrack is the embodiment of generic.
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Episode 7
Spoiler:
Oh boy, Kaneki with that mask. I feel that some serious stuff is about to happen. Other than that, there's the usual complain of censorship. That Mado is such a creepy character that he's cool. Also, probably shouldn't have asked an obvious question but were all those orphans' parents eaten by ghouls?
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Odamust wrote...
Spoiler:
Also, probably shouldn't have asked an obvious question but were all those orphans' parents eaten by ghouls?


Yes.
Spoiler:
They are part of CCG' child protection service where they take care of the orphans until they reach a certain age, although it's more like an indoctrination center for Doves.
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Spoiler:
Woohoo! Kaneki finally got the mask!!1
Seriously though, I still don't get what they're for... help?
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R. wrote...
Spoiler:
Woohoo! Kaneki finally got the mask!!1
Seriously though, I still don't get what they're for... help?


They wear masks so that they can hunt/fight humans without being recognized, meaning they don't have to deal with being ID'd by their face(one of the most common ways criminals are found). When Touka was talking about Ghoul masks she meant that having a life among humans is practically impossible once you are discovered.

On a symbolic note it represents their two different lives: without the mask they are human and with it they are Ghouls. Ghoul masks are often representative of their persona as a Ghoul(this is important during Aogiri Arc). Kaneki's mask resembles a leather fetish mask with many restraints because Kaneki struggles to suppress his Ghoul cravings.

EDIT: Someone post. It's about to get real crazy and it's a shame to let this die down.
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WideEyedMan wrote...

EDIT: Someone post. It's about to get real crazy and it's a shame to let this die down.


Sorry about that. It took me a while to catch up with the anime this past few weeks. Anywho, episode 10...
Spoiler:
That Kaneki having the endurance of a ragdoll in that one flash game. He just can't die no matter how much blood he lost. Then again, Nishiki has proven that to us twice. And finally, "AMORE" Tsukiyama is back. Can't wait to see how things will develop. I need to start reading the manga after this whole thing is done as well.
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