Communism or Capitalist society, take your pick

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discordia wrote...
it is impossible to avoid the responsibility for your actions. one way or another it will come back at you.
as for justifying myself...where did you get that idea? what actions do you think i should be justifying?

justice was born from revenge. in one of the oldest legal systems (old testament) thats exactly what justice was, an eye for an eye, that is just. even nowadays murderers get murdered or anyone that does someone harm is done harm to (i for one consider the taking of ones liberty one of the greatest harms). that is revenge. if not, wheres the difference to revenge?
is it maybe that the person to press the button or make the decision was not directly involved and doesnt have a personal grudge against the accused?
if we were to look for the reason of justice so it would be to deter people from committing crime, right? well, back in the old days it was the fear of revenge that kept them from doing so. i dont see that much of a difference, sure now we are more civilized, more cold so to speak but does it really make that much of a difference?

to kill someone because he killed someone is futile...and yet common practice, even in the so called bastion of democracy and liberty and whatnot.

you missed a detail btw, this phrase usually implicates that there is no absolute truth, that doesnt mean that there arent subjective truths. again, there are different levels of statements.

its not exactly fear of the law, its a long story of social conditioning. you should observe young toddlers and how they are taught what is right and what is wrong. they start behaving only due to conditioning, usually emotional neglect. this conditioning goes on through all your life and even made its way into forums.

morality, justice, all these things are but results of social conditioning and the most basic form of conditioning operates through fear.
its simple really, all you have to do is have your pupils associate their "misbehaviour" with some sort of punishment and the misbehaviour will cease due to fear of punishment. sure this fear cannot be compared to the fear you would feel if you find yourself in a lion cage, its more of a conscience shift that you start considering everything that is encouraged to be good and everything you d get punished for to be bad. most people undergoing this tend to start to enforce it themselves...

probably the most famous example is that boys dont cry. at least not after social conditionings through with them (although i hear there is a bit of paradigm shift in these matters)


btw

if everyone is entitled to the basic things of life i would cease all productive activity and retire myself to eating, sleeping and hanging out with friends.


Nope, I'd say that you misunderstand the idea of justice, it is a concept based on what is morally right. What you are thinking of is punishment. Justice and revenge are two very different things. I completely disagree with your idea of "an eye for an eye", that does not serve justice, you may say it is practiced around the world, well what I say to that is that justice is not.

It is not impossible to avoid responsibility for your actions, people do it every day, there is no "balancing force" beyond human will. It is up to humans to bring the unjust into disrepute. To take away their ill gotten gains. I suppose you've either got to see something unjust, and say "that's wrong, I won't allow this to continue", or you can say: "Damn, I wish I had thought of that, then I could be exploiting people". Judging from what you've said so far, I'd say you're the latter.

I'm not American, nor do I think that America is the bastion of democracy and liberty that it claims to be.

I have spoken on social conditioning before, but it can work in a different way. You are only thinking about the negative side of it; If you don't do something, or do something wrong then you are punished. Whereas I would employ that as: if you do the right thing then you are rewarded.

As for what actions you should be justifying, I would say murder and rape, as you don't seem to see anything wrong with them - you mentioned that you wouldn't commit either due to either fear of the law, or that you would not enjoy it. Not because they would be harmful to another person.

Okay, well you'd be welcome to do that in my society, as long as no-one came to harm as a result of it. Bear in mind that it would not be the most pleasant existence, nor would it be the most fulfilling. Don't you think you have something to offer to society? Do you have any talents? We are talking about a subsistence level existence here, when you could have so much more if you just applied yourself to something.
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Ambivalent Ecstasy wrote...
I was stating how you could succeed in changing people's minds while following my set of beliefs, you can make the world a better place that way. I know you don't think my ideals will ever get anywhere, what ideal that wasn't carved on a bullet ever has eh? :roll:


Are you saying that simply existing and having these beliefs is somehow actively pursuing a better world? How is that any different than allowing injustice to pass entirely?
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Dante1214 wrote...
Ambivalent Ecstasy wrote...
I was stating how you could succeed in changing people's minds while following my set of beliefs, you can make the world a better place that way. I know you don't think my ideals will ever get anywhere, what ideal that wasn't carved on a bullet ever has eh? :roll:


Are you saying that simply existing and having these beliefs is somehow actively pursuing a better world? How is that any different than allowing injustice to pass entirely?


I never said it was just a matter of existing, what I was saying was that the very least you could do is to spread the word, so-to-speak. Nothing is going to happen if you don't do anything. That, I admit.
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WhiteLion wrote...
However, forcibly trying to make everyone equal quashes freedom and individuality, especially the way it has been implemented by existing communist regimes. People are inherently not equal of ability. Some people have a talent for math, some people might have a talent for basketball, etc. One problem with communist regimes is that they generally fail to recognize this and offer few incentives for people to use their talents to the fullest. Essentially, why should person A work hard and produce a lot of progress when person B who has lesser talent produces less and gets the same benefit. Person A might as well be lazy and stoop to person B's level. This might not be morally admirable, but it's a reality that large scale communist societies have failed to effectively deal with.

Of course, redistributing and making all property communal also pretty much completely destroys the idea of economic freedom.

Partially socialist societies have been effective in some places, but personally I think a balance needs to be found between helping people who are disadvantaged have opportunities to succeed and presenting a situation where not succeeding doesn't provide enough of a disadvantage. That is, a welfare state in which the unemployed receive enough so as to live comfortably is not a good idea because it encourages unemployment.

As a citizen of the US, I think the US government is overly socialistic in some places but fails to do enough in other places where money might be spent more effectively. Social security is a stupid program. People should save for their own retirement, and if they don't, they'll have to keep working. This isn't and shouldn't be the government's job. On the other hand, the government spends far to little trying to get education and job training for the poor. I think it would be a good idea to pay people with a high enough financial need to go to community college or trade school for 2 years. It is more costly in the short run, but it helps create people who can get jobs, be contributing citizens in society, create better opportunities for their children, etc, and it gets them off welfare and such.

As far as Ayn Rand is concerned, I brought her up based on my belief that you may be an objectivist, and to be honest, I wasn't that far off. In my opinion she dances to the same tune as Nietzsche.

It is not cool to be a Nihilist, and it's not a joke either. Out of curiosity, how many people have you murdered? Nietzche's way is not justice, it will not promote the advancement of the species. If you advocate his views and quote him then you should know what that means. The idea of a common good is the way to advance the species, if people can be manipulated to serving it that is.


Ayn Rand is not someone I like much either. I understand the argument when someone claims they should not be forced to help others, but Ayn Rand goes so far as to say that charity is a sign of weakness and imply that we have a moral duty to NOT help the less fortunate because these people are almost unworthy of human dignity until they have made something of themselves, which I disagree with.

Nihilism is the most frightening philosophy in existence, in my mind. While not expressively destructive, there is no sense of anything and every action is of equal value(or rather, no value). To me, nihilism is the opposite of intelligence, as it rejects what defines humans as different from animals and even from inanimate objects. Nihilism is practiced primarily and most effectively by nonliving objects, certain events in subatomic physics that(we think) are random and unknowable when it comes to predicting individual events.

I don't, however, think Nietzsche was a nihilist or necessarily an evil person. He was trying to grapple with many of the philosophical ideas that had been developed that threatened meaning and existence, nihilism among them. His works were unclear and often varied significantly from one to the next, and unfortunately, this has caused people to misinterpret and use his ideas to justify horrible things.


This may sound arrogant but, I believe I rubbed off on you. That's alright, you did the same to me. I changed my stance on Capital Punishment & Abortions after reading an article in news week but, you got the ball rolling. Now their in better alignment with my natural philosophy.

To chirp in on one more thing. Maybe a "welfare" program that places people in basic jobs. Such as picking up trash on the highway as many of us have seen when driving. Making license plates is also another option. A simple job that anybody with no experience can do. Though those two options present a problem for prisons and jails since it reduces the income for their establishments. I think the idea might be worth a shot though.

On topic: I prefer capitalism. I do not agree with forcing everybody to be equal nor do I agree with economic redistribution as it lessens the incentives for people to improve their standing in life as Whitelion already pointed out. The "greater good" argument is better suited for properly regulated capitalism than communism or socialism. It creates the most incentives for people to work hard and the highest standard of living. The more money people have to spare vs their basic necessities the more they will be willing to give. I meet my basic requirements, I pay my bills and I give a good chunk of whats left to various charities from Shriners to "No Kill" humane shelters.

Though in the defense of communism, there is no TRUE communism in any country. These are all just dictatorships who are playing word games. A true communism has no government except for decentralized direct democracies such as the method in Leninism. Which is a rather unfair system as it turns votes into popularity contests.

Communism is the perfect system in a perfect world but, when reality it applied to Communism only the delusional would still think that its the best system. Communism doesn't account for the natural instincts and behavior of the human animal. One concern I have is that I have never heard of any real method of generating economic growth in communism nor any way for "wealth" to be redistributed. If I produce a chair am I supposed to give everybody everywhere the same chair? When it comes to health care are we supposed to just give everybody everything they need regardless of "cost"? Ration supply? How about something like Fuel? Are we supposed to just produce as much as possible? Ration the supply as demand may exceed supply? etc. Marx was never detailed in his description of Communism as an economic engine.
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its fairly difficult to convince someone of your idea of justice if there is no such thing as morality other than custom. either way, how do you explain that justice came to exist? maybe it simply didnt exist before the romans, maybe it didnt exist till after the enlightenment period but most likely it still doesnt exist. my point is that it was invented and has a darker history than you d be willing to admit.
besides, as you just said yourself, justice is an idea an ideal if you will. these things exist but in our minds.

every action you take has consequences, if you are clever enough you can chose them in a way that a possible outfall wont come back at you, which doesnt have anything to do with responsibilities. after all, what responsibilities do you exactly have to your next...i mean besides those implicated by your idea of justice.

its still social conditioning, unwanted behaviour is punished and desired behaviour is rewarded. all i m saying is that negative conditioning is much more effective and accordingly used more often. and as i mentioned before, people are very good at repressing, in most cases they will start to love the whip, embrace the whip, become the whip and call it good or justice...just like you did.

most people would make that choice and resort to illegal income (moonlighting, stealing) for the rest. bear in mind though that bored people are dangerous people, they might start killing and raping just because they have nothing better to do, it would turn into a two class society extremely fast and within little time there would be outcries from the working society to implement a special law that only applies to those that dont work and whatnot.
...so i dont really think your society would work out all that well...

besides, what is not fulfilling about dedicating my time to myself or having all the slaves do my work for me?
you see, i dont really need much. a roof over my head and a meal in my stomach and a book every month. i d probably start writing or painting just for my own enjoyment...yeah, nothing fulfilling about that.

another thing i d most likely enjoy is making fun of people that go to work.
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discordia wrote...
its fairly difficult to convince someone of your idea of justice if there is no such thing as morality other than custom. either way, how do you explain that justice came to exist? maybe it simply didnt exist before the romans, maybe it didnt exist till after the enlightenment period but most likely it still doesnt exist. my point is that it was invented and has a darker history than you d be willing to admit.
besides, as you just said yourself, justice is an idea an ideal if you will. these things exist but in our minds.

every action you take has consequences, if you are clever enough you can chose them in a way that a possible outfall wont come back at you, which doesnt have anything to do with responsibilities. after all, what responsibilities do you exactly have to your next...i mean besides those implicated by your idea of justice.

its still social conditioning, unwanted behaviour is punished and desired behaviour is rewarded. all i m saying is that negative conditioning is much more effective and accordingly used more often. and as i mentioned before, people are very good at repressing, in most cases they will start to love the whip, embrace the whip, become the whip and call it good or justice...just like you did.

most people would make that choice and resort to illegal income (moonlighting, stealing) for the rest. bear in mind though that bored people are dangerous people, they might start killing and raping just because they have nothing better to do, it would turn into a two class society extremely fast and within little time there would be outcries from the working society to implement a special law that only applies to those that dont work and whatnot.
...so i dont really think your society would work out all that well...

besides, what is not fulfilling about dedicating my time to myself or having all the slaves do my work for me?
you see, i dont really need much. a roof over my head and a meal in my stomach and a book every month. i d probably start writing or painting just for my own enjoyment...yeah, nothing fulfilling about that.

another thing i d most likely enjoy is making fun of people that go to work.


Okay, I'll tell you now that you've misunderstood my society, when I said your basic living requirements would be met, I didn't mean you'd have art supplies or books to read. If you want to be a student then go ahead and enroll as a student, you'd have books to read, but you'd still have to turn up to lectures and show that you are progressing in order to maintain your status. There is plenty that is fulfilling about what you described, but that's not what you'd get :P

All terms and concepts come from humans, it's pointless for you to repeatedly state that people's ideas of morality are subjective, why don't you tell me what your idea of morality is and tell me how it benefits humanity.

In my society there will be differences in the level of privilege people have, but no-one will have more than they can use, and everyone will be given the same opportunity to achieve privilege. There will be those who simply don't bother, and if they want to throw their toys out of the pram then I have little sympathy for them. They will just be harming themselves and their own chances of a good life.

The thing is, everyone would have something better to do, there would be jobs available to them, and jobs lead to privilege. If they still choose not to, then they can be sent away for human behavioral study. However I don't think your criminals would succeed in their endeavors, given the level of property regulation that I propose. I suppose they could make their own products, but if they are willing to do this, then they could just work and earn something solid and genuine from it.

I find it disappointing that you wish to be a leech upon society, you certainly do make a valid point for the more right-wing people here, thankfully not everyone is as bad as you are. It seems to me that you're trying to say: "I'm only going to try and fuck things up for everyone else", is fear genuinely the only motivator for you?

Feel free to laugh at those who work, I'm sure they'll laugh right back at you considering how much better off they are than you will be :) The basis of my society is justice, if you work you get a reward for your labor, while preserving the existence of people as a whole in order to give everyone an opportunity to be productive. Have you ever considered solitary confinement in prison? It seems you could get what you want, you'd have plenty of time to dedicate to yourself there :roll:
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actually, i dont wanna be a leech. but i d rather be a leech than being leeched.

btw, how would you explain the nice farmers in soviet russia that rather burned their crops than give it up for free?

btw, i would insist on you answering my question regarding the sources of justice.

also i d be interested to hear what exactly one is entitled to if one choses not to work so as to make a definite statement, as of now i simply assumed its the same as unemployment benefits which are imo fairly generous. you make it sound as if people wouldnt barely have enough to live...which kinda defeats the purpose you claim.
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discordia wrote...
actually, i dont wanna be a leech. but i d rather be a leech than being leeched.

btw, how would you explain the nice farmers in soviet russia that rather burned their crops than give it up for free?

btw, i would insist on you answering my question regarding the sources of justice.

also i d be interested to hear what exactly one is entitled to if one choses not to work so as to make a definite statement, as of now i simply assumed its the same as unemployment benefits which are imo fairly generous. you make it sound as if people wouldnt barely have enough to live...which kinda defeats the purpose you claim.


Ever heard of the prisoner's dilemma? Rational self-interested decisions in this do not end up being in the best interests of each individual. It is a matter of convincing everyone that working toward a common goal will lead to a better life. If people are paranoid over who is going to screw them over, then progress will not be made, so don't worry if there are people who aren't working, rest assured that you will benefit by putting your nose to the grindstone, you will still have free time, and more options with which to spend that same free time.

Which situation are you talking about? When you speak of farmers in Russia, are you talking about Soviet Russia? If so, I will say that Soviet Russia was an thoroughly unjust society in itself, and thus did little to encourage it's people to be just by it's actions.

Sources of the concept of justice? Well off the top of my head I would say Solon, from about 600bc in Athens.

If you choose not to work, then you are entitled to something along the lines of; Subsistence level food reinforced with vitamin pills, clean water, a cup, the rags you are wearing, a pair of shoes, a toothbrush, a ration of toothpaste, a communal shelter where you will live with other unemployed people. Oh and you also get free health care if you get sick or injured. Everyone if entitled to the highest level of education, even if they do not work.

People would just about have enough to live on and nothing more. If they want something more then they can work for it. It will be fair, if your work has value, you will be justly compensated. But the only way you will achieve something beyond what the state gives everyone, is by contributing.

People who don't work, will scrape by an existence. But will have a gift that a lot of people do not have; the opportunity to learn, work hard and make something of their lives. You can only gain via merit, and those who show themselves to be exceptional assets to society, will be far better off than those who choose to leech.
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in that case i would probably become a lifelong student. maybe give cynicism another try.


so, what do you think was justice before solon? i mean, people lived in societies long before 600bc and appearantly they did so without what you d call justice.
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discordia wrote...
in that case i would probably become a lifelong student. maybe give cynicism another try.


so, what do you think was justice before solon? i mean, people lived in societies long before 600bc and appearantly they did so without what you d call justice.


If you're willing to apply yourself, then that would be an admirable pursuit.

I would presume that there were instances of what I would define as "just" behavior before Solon. I was answering the question "where would you say the concept of justice originated?" Justice can happen without being recognized as such. A code, which everyone can follow, can offer a guideline by which justice can be pursued more regularly.
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what exactly does apply mean in this context?

so retributive justice (i.e. revenge) isnt part of it?
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discordia wrote...
what exactly does apply mean in this context?

so retributive justice (i.e. revenge) isnt part of it?


In this sense it means using your talents to achieve something in your chosen field, showing progress and such. If you have gained knowledge and insight, then you are compelled to share that with society.

Nope, retributive justice is unethical.
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Thing is, neither one of them really works for long. Communism, people get greedy. Capitalism, people are too selfish. Id say best to take elements from both. Then again no matter how hard you try to integrate pie and cake some douche or group of douches will eventualy come along and throw a steaming wad of turd in it.
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while it may be unethical, its not necessarily injust.

either way, what exactly would compel me to share that?
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discordia wrote...
while it may be unethical, its not necessarily injust.

either way, what exactly would compel me to share that?


Yes retributive justice is unjust. The term "retributive justice" is an oxymoron.

Your desire for personal and professional acknowledgment, coupled with the fact that you have expressed a desire to remain a student for the duration of your life.
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yes, a student, not a teacher.

i consider it far more likely that your idea of justice is differing from what common sense makes it out to be.
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discordia wrote...
yes, a student, not a teacher.

i consider it far more likely that your idea of justice is differing from what common sense makes it out to be.


With one comes some of the other I'm afraid. To be a student you would have to study, investigate or examine thoughtfully and present your findings.

Haha, I find it amusing whenever someone brings up "common sense", if you look at it from a logical perspective; someone who kills someone else for whatever reason is not justified, by killing that person you are not pursuing justice but rather just committing another injustice.
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so you mean to say that it was injust for the allies to wage war against nazi germany? or for anyone attacked to defend himself...
you have a truly strange perception of justice.
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discordia wrote...
so you mean to say that it was injust for the allies to wage war against nazi germany? or for anyone attacked to defend himself...
you have a truly strange perception of justice.


My perception of justice is pure, there is no justice in causing another human being suffering for your own gain. Even if one side was entirely in the right before the first shot was fired, when that shot is fired, they lose everything they were and become as bad as their enemy.
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just to get this straight. you are not allowed to defend yourself?
ok, thats it. i m done.
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