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Ever 17 - The Out of Infinity -

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chaosbreak
15 years ago
hmm
Spoiler:
isnt that kinda like saying that holding an unsealed unfixed bucket underwater (from a starting position of the top and bottom of the bucket along the horizontal axis, based on the scenario) adds the weight of the water in the bucket onto you while you are moving up?
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sifian_
15 years ago
chaosbreak wrote...
hmm
Spoiler:
isnt that kinda like saying that holding an unsealed unfixed bucket underwater (from a starting position of the top and bottom of the bucket along the horizontal axis, based on the scenario) adds the weight of the water in the bucket onto you while you are moving up?



I'm not 100% positive of what you are describing... but we can discuss what I'm interpreting.
Spoiler:

You start with a bucket some depth underwater initially filled with air. This bucket is made out of a material heavier than water. Since the bucket is not sealed, it slowly takes on water and loses air.
This water is definitely considered ballast, and is little different than metal/stone/etc of equal mass. The main (trivial) difference is that 1kg water is very slightly lighter than the sum mass of (1kg stone + the air equivalent to the volume of 1kg water).

At some point once enough water has been taken on, the bucket will cease to be buoyant and will start sinking if it has not reached the surface before then. Thus it is definitely a race to see whether the bucket loses buoyancy or if the bucket surfaces first.

Alignment of the bucket shouldn't matter in this situation- I'm guessing you mention it because you are concerned that alignment will have an effect on the rate of water intake and air loss. This is a real factor, but not especially relevant to the concept in question.


At this point I'd like to reiterate that I loved the game as a whole. I'm am a chronic nitpicker and the more I like something, the more critical I am of its flaws. Having taken several years worth of mechanical engineering courses, fluid dynamics is much more on the forefront of my mind than the average person.
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chaosbreak
15 years ago
sifian_ wrote...
Spoiler:

You start with a bucket some depth underwater initially filled with air. This bucket is made out of a material heavier than water. Since the bucket is not sealed, it slowly takes on water and loses air.
This water is definitely considered ballast, and is little different than metal/stone/etc of equal mass. The main (trivial) difference is that 1kg water is very slightly lighter than the sum mass of (1kg stone + the air equivalent to the volume of 1kg water).

At some point once enough water has been taken on, the bucket will cease to be buoyant and will start sinking if it has not reached the surface before then. Thus it is definitely a race to see whether the bucket loses buoyancy or if the bucket surfaces first.

Alignment of the bucket shouldn't matter in this situation- I'm guessing you mention it because you are concerned that alignment will have an effect on the rate of water intake and air loss. This is a real factor, but not especially relevant to the concept in question.


and how would this relate to the situation in the story?
Spoiler:
my example was to refute what you said about the +1000kg of water - takeshi's mass = scenario writer missing out on something (i am assuming that you assumed that takeshi closed the door and tsugumi has to bilge the water out of the compartment takeshi was previously in, in order to float). or can you clarify your stand in further detail?

my example about the pail seeks to explain that the open door means it is still possible for the sub to float after takeshi stepped off since the initial conditions of the sub and the individual dimensions of the compartments were left unspecified -> leading to my opinion that maybe the writer didnt leave anything out after all


EDIT:
Spoiler:
I went ahead and did a quantitative sum, and it seems that even if takeshi stepped off the sub, due to the volume of the room 'lost', the sub would only sink. it looks like an impossible scenario unless tsugumi has a method to bilge the water out of the water-filled room takeshi was previously in.

is that what you were saying?
1
sifian_
15 years ago
I guess I'm not following what you're trying to say about the bucket analogy.
Okay, let's take a step back to the actual system.

Spoiler:
(i am assuming that you assumed that takeshi closed the door and tsugumi has to bilge the water out of the compartment takeshi was previously in, in order to float)

That is exactly what I'm saying.

Now... it's possible that we both understand the mechanics perfectly and what we should be arguing over is the submarine geometry. Let's assume that somehow the the exit chamber is formed exactly Takeshi's size/shape. If he exits the submarine and that space is fill with water, it will have almost no effect on the buoyancy of the submarine because the human body is damn near perfectly buoyant against water. This is exacerbated by the fact that the exit chamber will undoubtedly be of greater volume than the person exiting, thus you lose the buoyancy previously offered by the air surrounding Takeshi before he exited.

In order for the net buoyancy to increase, not only does his mass need to be removed from the submarine, but his volume needs to stay within the submarine. This is obviously impossible to achieve in one step, but the same effect can be realized by forcibly extracting the water taken in with a bilge pump.

More jargon that I typed out that's probably not necessary, but I hate to delete it after I typed it. I wanted to spoiler it, but it seems it won't let me nest spoiler tags.
Consider the submarine as a whole. Two chambers, two humans in one, both are filled with air. This assembly has slightly negative buoyancy. The air contained within the exit chamber is highly positively buouant. When Takeshi leaves, the chamber goes from a positively buoyant status to a neutrally buoyant status, and the whole assembly loses buoyancy.

I thought of a less esoteric example than my styrofoam discussion earlier. Think of an inflated balloon that contains a small weight (takeshi) and has a large weight(the rest of the mass) affixed to the exterior. Let's assume that the two masses are close to infinitely dense, thus they have no buoyancy of their own, and let's also assume the balloon and the air have essentially no mass and that the air is non-compactable. Now, if the internal mass is removed without any air escaping the assembly will stop sinking and will begin to float.

However, it is impossible to jettison the small internal weight without also expelling some air. Let's say removing the internal mass requires you to expel 1/10 of the air in the balloon (probably close to what opening the exit chamber door would be like). The balloon has now lost 10% of it's lift force. That's fine if the internal mass was greater than 10% of the total system mass, it will now float. However, I'm assuming that the takeshi is less than 10% of the total submarine mass, and thus the lost air volume needs to be replaces somehow or else the system will simply sink faster. Pumping out the water taken in is the same as inflating the balloon back to its original size.



chaosbreak wrote...

EDIT:
Spoiler:
I went ahead and did a quantitative sum, and it seems that even if takeshi stepped off the sub, due to the volume of the room 'lost', the sub would only sink. it looks like an impossible scenario unless tsugumi has a method to bilge the water out of the water-filled room takeshi was previously in.

is that what you were saying?

Yup.
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Nekomimiko
15 years ago
@sifian thanks for taking the time for clarifying, lesson learned :D
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sifian_
15 years ago
lol, np.

I enjoy rambling about crap I have some small expertise with. I've gotten into more heated discussions over more trivial matters, so this was a good way to kill time before work.

As a counter to that, I really hate typing the word "buoyancy". Muscle habit automatically makes me type a U after an O if those two letters are going to be adjacent to each other. I saw a whole lot of misspelling squiqqles in this thread.
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HyakkoF
15 years ago
I have it downloaded but still haven't gotten around to it.
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Valkee
15 years ago
Just EPIC. First I was content with just finishing Tsugumi's. Damn, it made me teary in the end. But then I proceeded with Sora. Very sad endings indeed. But it took me a day and a half to finish just one route. lawl
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chaosbreak
15 years ago
this might actually be a little out of topic...
i was trying out this virtual keyboard thingy today.

KDK;JDJ;HKGDFDFKDSDKLHJ
KDK;JDJ;HK;';
;LKLKJ;H

try it! lol
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Nekomimiko
15 years ago
^omg sounds so familiar it brings back memories TT__TT
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XuanHearts
15 years ago
That does sound about right. Unless the sub's mechanics somehow could auto filter the water out of the system, the sub will sink. Even faster than before.

Well I suppose you guys can cheat yourself by saying that since it's a future world, the sub was designed to auto filter water out of the system. Even a clock battery (Forgot what it was called) like those in computer that keeps date in check? It MIGHT have such a backup, but just enough to kick the water out of the system.

Er, one question. Once air released you'll have to get more from somewhere right? So even if those water are filtered away it would leave a vacuum there, would it? Does that mean it can't float even if ideally, those water ain't there? Argh, I'm getting confused...
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sifian_
15 years ago
XuanHearts wrote...

Er, one question. Once air released you'll have to get more from somewhere right? So even if those water are filtered away it would leave a vacuum there, would it? Does that mean it can't float even if ideally, those water ain't there? Argh, I'm getting confused...


One thing to keep in mind, air is highly compressible and water is not very compressible. There are two ways in which one could forcibly extract water from a submerged container.

1) Raise the air pressure such that it forces water out. In this circumstance...
Spoiler:
High powered fans could move air from one partition of the submarine creating a low pressure zone in the passenger cabin and a high pressure zone in the airlock.


2) Mechanically force the non-compressible fluid out. This requires a one way valve and a mechanism that can exhert force on a noncompressible fluid. One obvious mechanism is a propeller. Another is a compressible bladder with two one-way valves. (I'm sure there are other styles of pumps, but this is off the top of my head).

In either event, the overall air pressure is going to be lessened, but it shouldn't be an issue so long as pressure doesn't drop terribly (I am not even going to guess at when low pressure is unhealthy to humans).
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ddkotan
15 years ago
I remember Ever 17.. After I completed 3 routes I felt like quiting.. But I wanted Coco's route so bad.. Then I played Tsugumi's route.. I think I fell in love <3 SHE'S MINE!!! I'm jk XD lol epic game.. How does the seller of an epic game, go out of business? i.i
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Kaimax Best Master-San
15 years ago
ddkotan wrote...
How does the seller of an epic game, go out of business? i.i


Remember that Hirameki ONLY Licensed and translated it, and it was they're own decision to stop licensing games.

While KID went Bankrupt in 2006, However in February 2007 it was announced that KID's intellectual properties had been acquired by the corporation Cyber Front, and thus all unfinished projects will be continued under the latter

So, if you want to see more, hope that Cyber Front doesn't screw up much.
0
ddkotan
15 years ago
Kaimax wrote...
ddkotan wrote...
How does the seller of an epic game, go out of business? i.i


Remember that Hirameki ONLY Licensed and translated it, and it was they're own decision to stop licensing games.

While KID went Bankrupt in 2006, However in February 2007 it was announced that KID's intellectual properties had been acquired by the corporation Cyber Front, and thus all unfinished projects will be continued under the latter

So, if you want to see more, hope that Cyber Front doesn't screw up much.


Yea I heard that their projects got taken over.. but I don't think they're going to be releasing anything in English anytime soon i.i
WOOT I REPLAYED COCO'S ROUTE, EPIC EPIC EPIC!!! gah... I got no Hard drive space.. I'm gonna burn it into a CD or something :P
0
Kaimax Best Master-San
15 years ago
ddkotan wrote...
Kaimax wrote...

While KID went Bankrupt in 2006, However in February 2007 it was announced that KID's intellectual properties had been acquired by the corporation Cyber Front, and thus all unfinished projects will be continued under the latter

So, if you want to see more, hope that Cyber Front doesn't screw up much.

but I don't think they're going to be releasing anything in English anytime soon


Of course they won't release anything in Enlish, because Cyber Front is a Game Comapny

Not an English License Company....
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ddkotan
15 years ago
Kaimax wrote...
ddkotan wrote...
Kaimax wrote...

While KID went Bankrupt in 2006, However in February 2007 it was announced that KID's intellectual properties had been acquired by the corporation Cyber Front, and thus all unfinished projects will be continued under the latter

So, if you want to see more, hope that Cyber Front doesn't screw up much.

but I don't think they're going to be releasing anything in English anytime soon


Of course they won't release anything in Enlish, because Cyber Front is a Game Comapny

Not an English License Company....

My bad.. lol xD
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ImperialX
15 years ago
Has anyone here played other games from the Infinity series?
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chaosbreak
15 years ago
halfway through the other 2, i have lots of half-played games lol
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Akaoni21
15 years ago
Id love to play this game! Any chance someone could post some DL links for me? :P
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