So I have finally read Type-Moon's Tsukihime and F/SN

and once again, that's the way "you" feel. then again, you haven't played Amatsukaze to actually compare it with Rance.

Maybe it's because of my writing background or just my style of doing it, but I think scenario should be lumped in with writing. One won't be good without the other holding its own.

As far as the discussion goes, I too started with FS/N after seeing the anime and being thoroughly disappointed. From there I hit up Ever 17 and, well, that pretty much speaks for itself.

OP, compared to other VNs, F/SN is a mediocre, babby's first VN that's filled with flashy actions, asspulls and plot hax. Tsukihime has decent plot and more likeable characters, but to fully understand its universe and creatures you have to read other materials (i.e. retcons everywhere).

Also imo that chart Kaimax posted is a little too subjective and doesn't really explain things. Try this one, it got less VNs but at least there's a synopsis for each of them.

Lol@Swan Song being on "Highly Recommended", but maybe it was just me that didn't think it was anything special.

Eien no aselia? Isn't that primarily just an JRPG?

Well it's obvious since the list I posted came from /jp so it's focuses on "ALL VNs", while Babby's List mostly focuses on English translated ones and it's pretty subjective itself. Playing Tears to Tiara, and then putting Utawarerumono on the obscure /jp shit list. lol
I bet he have barely tried the ones in the /jp list, judging from his way he speaks about /jp.

and honestly I rather view a detailed review with stats than just synopsis. Babby's list didn't explain anything besides copy pasting synopsis to his recommended list, and all seriousness got reduced when he wrote "Nice Boat" for School Days, that clearly doesn't explain anything.

@Klown I never think Swan song was special either, so you're not alone.
@Batre It's a VN with JRPG elements, so it's not just a JRPG.

Same here.

You bastard, it's not personal preference, it's writing! Are unrealistic porno scenes good?! Are overly detailed descriptions of the penis while lacking descriptions of everything else supposed to be good?! Writing is a science! And that is what makes it art!



I can't even get mad at this because I don't even think this guy knows what he's talking about. Sekien no Inganock being highly recommended...that thing is everything that's right and wrong with this world. I can't stop being in love with that scenario and it's characters, but the way it wrapped up...the way some answers to the mysteries were presented outside of the actual story, and just "dumped" to you. It really took away from the experience of "uncovering" the mysteries. How does anyone else who played this visual novel feel?

You're clearly mixing up both ERO and Writing.
ERO in this is obviously the amount not the quality writing.
Amatsukaze, France Shoujo, Prima Stella and other 5 Star ERO have MANY H-scenes.

and Like I said, Since you have never played the ones that is 5 star in ero, you don't have something to compare to with Sengoku Rance, and all the 5 Star ones are not translated.

So, play those ones first then we will have something to discuss.

An interesting discussion is starting.

Sorry to intervene but I think you're kinda wrong here. Good writing does not always equal good ero. Although it has a good writing but if there's only a little amount of scenes compared to the whole game then you can't say the ero is the strong point of the game, therefore you can't say the ero is good especially when being compared to other VNs that emphasize on their sex scenes. Also some people do like unrealistic sex scenes or overly detailed description of genitals, it's called fetish. So yes, personal preference also takes part.



I posted that just in case anyone wants to find out the general summary instead of just stars since it gives more description about the genre or story overview, well, to each their own. I also disagree about some titles put in the recommended sections, like School Days or Canvas 2.
From seeing the obscure list probably someone from /a/ made it, you know how shitty is the relationship between them and /jp/. /jp/ called /a/ noob or babby while the other called them hipster faggots. So yeah anything /a/ likes is hated by /jp/ and vice versa. Can never find a truly objective chart. About Inganock, I dropped it halfway so I can't give any comment, but so far I've no complaint whatsoever with this VN.

It still plays as a VN during the story parts.

This is a Visual Novel! They're MEANT to be mixed! The pictures go with the words hand-in-hand! Quality and quantity are both important factors! People who like just lots and lots of porn pictures might as well just go get a goddamn Playboy!

Like I said you're now just forcing your opinion that ERO should have great writing and not about amount.

First and foremost, what makes a ERO have high quality (example a 5 star rating)? What's the measurement?

The easiest is the amount, which is countable and is not subjective to any opinion. How the scenario and the writing is brought into the ERO scenes is a whole different section, which obviously falls into writing and scenario criteria.

and how would you know that a VN with High amount of ERO "doesn't have writing/scenario quality" if you have never played one.

you're basically now discriminating VNs based on the amount of ERO.

And did you know that visual Novels is a term made by the western community to make things convenient, and by lumping together all the styles of the "original" VN media.

To the point that a "obviously clear" Hentai game was rated bad just because it was "sexual oriented".

There are no opinions here, I'm making a claim. I have provided my reasoning for it, and unless it is refuted, it is "fact".



So are you saying how many porno pictures there are in a visual novel should influence how it's overall rating is? So a visual novel with over a 1,000 porno pictures, regardless of the drawing style and quality, as well as the scene that accompanies it, gets maybe 10 stars, with 1 star in everything else. It gets an A. How is that an accurate judgement?



I have played a visual novel before. I have played plenty of visual novels, with porn and no porn.



Discriminating...? So is that what all visual novels should be about? Just the porn? Like in my above example, if a visual novel just had plenty of porno pictures, should it be considered a masterpiece?



I consider porno visual novels a different genre, and I grade it thusly, much like how I grade a horror visual novel on it's realism and horror. If you're going to work porn into a visual novel, then you should make it work. Cross Channel's porn worked because of the main protagonist. I could see why the porn and his ero habits worked.

you're completely out of topic, I'm focusing only the ERO rating as a SINGLE Rating, not the overall rating of a VN. Yet you keep on, trying to combine this with Writing and Scenarios.



No, what I meant, have you ever played those ones currently one the list I posted that have "5 stars"? It's obvious that you have never played these "kinds" of VNs and only stick to translated VNs.



Like I said you never played one specifically, none of the translated ones has this. Try to play France Shoujo/Amatsukaze/Prima Stella first



Elaborate "Make porn work". There's no legitimate measurement on how the "porn" works, it's clearly your opinion.

Final question, How many VNs that you actually played?

Your claims are not vaild until you play them for your self, not just assuming things just because you have the idea that [b]High amount of Ero = Not a good VN, I rather buy a playboy.

and finally The List is used as reference, it's not a fact, yet you keep denying it as it's a written fact.

Shut up, Nishi. No one likes you.

*Throws NeoStriker out window. Says he fell.*

But, on a more serious note, please don't say "fact" like that. Firstly, any statement not supported by independently verifiable evidence cannot be considered a fact, thus reducing any discussion involving preferences solely to the realm of opinion.

Secondly, this is not a manga, and that is not a key word.





Thats a supposition of extremes. Typically, black sheep rankings like that would be marked with a *See Below* marking, and be judged not on an average, but as a singular case. In your example, a overall D with an S rank in ero.





Am I the only one who habitually hits the Skip key when ero scenes pop up!?

After reading your entire argument five times, I am not sure whether you are serious or not. I do not believe English to be your first language. You are constantly taking my words out of context or ignoring the point of my arguments and it infuriates me. You say I should not make claims about VNs until I have played untranslated VNs, and yet by that logic, you should not make an argument with me without having learned proper English. I will now refute you believing you to be serious.

I am not off topic, I am expanding the topic, using an ability called "critical thinking". I did consider how Ero rating is based. By your logic, Ero rating should be based on quantity. And I showed how that is flawed. If you fill a visual novel full of porno pictures with shitty graphics and quality. All of those shitty porno pictures would still be considered porno pictures, and by your logic, it would mean that that visual novel would still have a 10/10 rating for Ero. Regardless of whether or not the pictures are shitty, a developer could essentially boost the Overall rating of their visual novel if they just keep adding more porno pictures to boost the Ero rating. This would be placing too much emphasis on just porno pictures, when visual novels are not about that in the first place.

Irony. You say I "discriminated" VNs based on the amount of ero, and now you are discriminating me based on translated VNs. I have played Yosuga no Sora. Does this mean your entire opinion of me has changed now?

You took "make porn work" out of context. Making porn work by itself is different from making it work with a visual novel. How porn works with a visual novel is something people get paid to decide, and I'm not getting paid. And didn't I use an example with Cross Channel? Tsukihime is another good example. The twins to be more specific. They had a specific reason to have sex initially, because of their bodies' special properties. I suppose the measurement of how well porn works with a visual novel is it's level of realism to the reader. At this point, you would say something like, "Right, and that's your opinion", or something like, "Those twins had *special* properties. Obviously not real". Opinions can be stupid, Kaimax. They are not free from judgement. Anything that works outside of the human boundary of judgement does not exist. If you want a further explanation on "existence", imagine walking down a street. Now you are realizing you are completely aware of only the things you are able to sense. Did your mom just get run over by a car? Did you just lose all savings in your bank account? Is some beautiful princess waiting to marry you outside of your home? These things do not exist until you know about them. Onto the point on realism, it did not have to be "magic". Maybe it could have been a drug that induces lust. Maybe it could have just been temporary insanity.

I have played...Critical Point, Snow Drop, Bible Black, Sekien no Inganock, Clannad, Yume Miru Kusuri, Virgin Roster, Amorous Professor Cherry, Sagara Family, Cross Channel, Tsukihime, Fading Hearts, Sengoku Rance, True Rememberance, Brass Restoration, Kana~Little Sister, Daibanchou, Saya no Uta, Crimsoness, and some others I probably can't remember. Why do I even have to bust a nut like this to prove myself to you? I'm so sorry, I didn't realize you're an Absolute God of Visual Novels. Sorry to break it to you, but unless you can reproduce asexually, you're not a God yet.

My claims become invalid when they are proven wrong. Right now, I am basing my claim off of Sengoku Rance being an impressive work of qualitative as well as quantitive porn. I believe you thus stated something like, "the ero rating is based off of only quantity to make it more arbitrary and fair, which would explain how Amatsukaze got a higher score". So I then said that that system of ero rating is stupid, which I believe I further explained above. No, I do not believe that high amounts of porn automatically makes it a bad visual novel, I am saying people who choose to get their porn from visual novels are stupid because there are better sources of porn and they are essentially ignoring the visual novel part.

If I walked around claiming the moon was made out of cheese, I would be considered "absolutely correct" until someone stopped and took the time to show me I'm wrong. Likewise, the person who made that list will claim that his reviews are "absolutely correct" until someone takes the time to show him he's wrong. Of course, I can be shown to be wrong as well, and thus we call that the art of "communication".



Oho, Azrith. So you've chosen to rear your head. I always pick avatar pictures that have the correct eyes. Let me respond to you first since your's is shorter and I'm a bit exhausted.

This is just a case of semantics. This is how theories work. I have made my claim, provided backing, and unless it is refuted, it is "fact".

That is correct. But it would overall be a visual novel with a rank of D. Very poor. If one would still choose to play it for the S rank in porn, then they might as well just go get a playboy. To play visual novels for porn leaves a very bad taste. People can choose to do so, but they would be very badly tasting humans.

I read everything, but I do get tempted to skip the ero scenes sometimes.

NeoStriker, what Kaimax wanted to say is the simple way to rate VNs' ero score is by looking at the quantity of sex scenes and HCGs, because it makes it easier for people who are looking for VNs for the purpose to enjoy the ero to just look at the chart and say "oh, this game got 5 stars on ero, it must have lots of hentai content I can fap to", simple as that. A good VN, even with quality writings and deep story, will get its ero scored lower (note, just the ero score) than VNs that are more sex-oriented and more focused on the sex scenes.

It's true that good writing in sex scenes matters, but once again, people have their own tastes on their reading material. Some prefer well written background stories, some prefer weird shits like tentacle demon impregnation rape and don't really care much about the setting, some consider the genre of the VNs like sci-fi, romance, horror, etc. In the end it's up to opinions, "things I like", "things I don't like", there's no science in that. This is what I meant by good writings does not always equal good ero. For example, let's say there's a fantasy VN with a really good story, good characters development and lots of good sex scenes, and a lot of people recommended it to me. But I'm not a fan of fantasy genre and there was a scene which, besides being very relevant to the story and had brought tears to other people's eyes, made me cringe because I think it's some really sick shit. Do you think I would rate it high despite everybody praising it?

It's very difficult to judge the VNs' ero rating from the writings because whether a writing is good or bad is entirely up to personal taste and preference, so people will most likely use the easiest form of measurement which is the quantity of ero scenes. Yes, it's not an accurate judgement. Yes, rating of any kind will always be subjective and biased. And yes, there are people who think more sex scenes and pictures is better, but they won't buy Playboy because they like 2D girls better.

What happened? Did I destroy Kaimax's self-esteem or something? He should move on.

Simple does not automatically make it the best way to score ero. People who look for visual novels just for the porn are dumb, and so are the developers who put too much of an emphasis on porn in visual novels. Why can't there be a Visual Novel with quality writing, a deep story, AND good ero?

"cockgoinvaginahecame"

Did you know that the writers don't even have to use proper spacing? Capitalization? Adjectives? Periods? But when they do, that's what we all call good? That's right, there's no "subjectivity" in that. If we can all agree that using proper spacing and periods is good, then there is in fact an objectivity to writing. There is no opinion about it. For your fantasy VN example, no, you would not rate it high despite everybody praising it. So who's right? The one person who doesn't like the fantasy genre? The people who are praising this VN? No one is right or wrong, merely you would be the exception to the rule. Try not to take any recommendations from your "friends" in the future, since they have such different tastes as you.

Writing can be judged good or bad. They merely come in different flavors. For example, ice cream. Yes, it's not an accurate judgment. No, rating of any kind can be objective and unbiased. Yes, there are people like that, and they need to be educated. And "playboy" was just a symbol for "source just for porn".