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i like how this whole topic has been founded on the question of an opinion i think in answer of this question you would have to ask each individual feminist what there view is as no matter what they may/may not be fighting for whatever there views may/may not be have you questioned if this "feminist" person understands what there trying to do and if it is a fair and just thing to ask for or simply trying to obtain something that's been denied to them like how someone who has been denied something wants it not because of the object in question but simply because they have been told no verbally physically or in any other manner
my point being the whole topic is based on a answer that needs specifics from people labeled as a group that has a wide range of views from groupies following for attention to extremists who lose sight of the original goal and has the commentar's lost sight of what is asked instead of question the actions of groups of people or what should/shouldn't be allowed
my point being the whole topic is based on a answer that needs specifics from people labeled as a group that has a wide range of views from groupies following for attention to extremists who lose sight of the original goal and has the commentar's lost sight of what is asked instead of question the actions of groups of people or what should/shouldn't be allowed
-1
Summer Salt
@rotoscopic
The entire basic idea of feminism is that men and women are equal, and therefore deserve equal rights. I don't think there's anything to argue against there, really.
0
Cruz
Dope Stone Lion
nelluid wrote...
i like how this whole topic has been founded on the question of an opinion i think in answer of this question you would have to ask each individual feminist what there view is as no matter what they may/may not be fighting for whatever there views may/may not be have you questioned if this "feminist" person understands what there trying to do and if it is a fair and just thing to ask for or simply trying to obtain something that's been denied to them like how someone who has been denied something wants it not because of the object in question but simply because they have been told no verbally physically or in any other manner my point being the whole topic is based on a answer that needs specifics from people labeled as a group that has a wide range of views from groupies following for attention to extremists who lose sight of the original goal and has the commentar's lost sight of what is asked instead of question the actions of groups of people or what should/shouldn't be allowed
Oh my what a scrambled mess that first paragraph was.
As for your point, no. The OP clearly says that there's a case by case basis. There's nothing wrong with an introspection. I don't care about extremist feminist, the most malicious brand of social activist are those with influence who have no problem basing decisions on factoids fed to them. He also makes no mention of "what should/shouldn't be allowed, you dishonest faggot.
Ideation wrote...
The entire basic idea of feminism is that men and women are equal, and therefore deserve equal rights. I don't think there's anything to argue against there, really.Really, nothing to argue? So everyone in this thread but you and those who agree with your sentiment are wrong? Welp guess Feminist never lie, spread factoids, contribute to a "hysteria culture", advocate certain stigmas and negative gender perceptions, help pass unjust legislation for the sake of "equality".
We are definitely not equal(race, gender, upbringing, health, social perception, random life changing evetns etc. etc.)and it's not hard for people to see disparities. Most ration people know this well, so what they want is not equality, it is a pursuit of some form of parity(supposedly). A lot of those concerns brought by gender activist are valid, or at least have some validity to them. But to say that there isn't or can't be any problems sprung up by pursuit of "equality" is outrageous.
Spoiler:
-1
Summer Salt
@rotoscopic
No, I said the basic idea of feminism. I'm not denying that some feminists do shitty things-- and for that matter, so do Christians, Jews, white people, black people... every single group of humans on earth will have a number of their population that do shitty things.
The root idea of feminism is equality. I can't help it that people take the basic message and twist it out of proportion. Hell, the basic message of Christianity is to love god, love your neighbor, and love yourself-- and we can see how well that turns out.
The root idea of feminism is equality. I can't help it that people take the basic message and twist it out of proportion. Hell, the basic message of Christianity is to love god, love your neighbor, and love yourself-- and we can see how well that turns out.
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You should only defend the idea of men and women are equal in the eyes of the law, you should not defend every person who lumps themselves in a bandwagon label of feminism.
For fuck sake, you shouldn't label anybody as anything, only talk about specific ideas.
For fuck sake, you shouldn't label anybody as anything, only talk about specific ideas.
0
Summer Salt
@rotoscopic
At a certain point, labels need to be given and generalizations need to be made. Conservative, liberal, feminist, egalitarianist, man, woman... all are labels given to speed conversation without quibbling over the details of what each one means. To provide a counterpoint, it's easy to apply generalizations or labels that absolutely don't fit the subject, at which point it becomes a matter of finding those incorrect labels and getting rid of them.
0
Ideation wrote...
At a certain point, labels need to be given and generalizations need to be made. Conservative, liberal, feminist, egalitarianist, man, woman... all are labels given to speed conversation without quibbling over the details of what each one means. To provide a counterpoint, it's easy to apply generalizations or labels that absolutely don't fit the subject, at which point it becomes a matter of finding those incorrect labels and getting rid of them.You realize that your last sentence shows why your first sentence is wrong? You realize that right?
Good reasons as to why we don't need labels is because people misuse them, over generalize them, mischaracterize others and themselves. Total waste of energy, time and discussion.
If we simply discussed about specific ideas and not lump those ideas to some group or label, we would make progress much faster and make better understanding between people.
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Cruz
Dope Stone Lion
Ideation wrote...
No, I said the basic idea of feminism. I'm not denying that some feminists do shitty things-- and for that matter, so do Christians, Jews, white people, black people... every single group of humans on earth will have a number of their population that do shitty things.The root idea of feminism is equality. I can't help it that people take the basic message and twist it out of proportion. Hell, the basic message of Christianity is to love god, love your neighbor, and love yourself-- and we can see how well that turns out.
No, the basic idea of Christianity was to fear and love god, and to follow it's "rules". Feminism in it's roots is also not for equality but for an improvement in women's rights. No one sane believes (men/women/anything in between and outside of that) that we're all equals, just that we all should expect to have certain unalienable rights and fair treatment.
You also entirely missed the point of my post, you said there's nothing to argue about because they seek "equality", wish shows your ignorance because you can't possibly comprehend that "equality" seekers don't play nice. Which is why the OP brought up the question of whether question/examine what they do/say/preach. It is exactly because it's big and diverse that it can and needs to be questioned by those who refer to themselves as "feminist".
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Summer Salt
@rotoscopic
When I look back at OP, it looks like it mentions that specifically, the feminists he talked to were your good ol' college-age feminists. And, like I said, every group is going to have people that do shitty things. Feminists getting angry when somebody questions their views? Yeah, that boat's going to go nowhere, and it's going to go nowhere fast. They're not going to get people onto their side of the fence by getting angry and yelling-- they're going to convince people by coming back with a calm explanation of what they stand for.
Meeting the right feminists does wonderful things for your image of them. Same goes for democrats, republicans, Jews, Christians... I mean, look at the current pope. For a pope, he's doing a pretty badass job. This is a pope that makes me look at religion and go, "Hey, maybe this isn't all that bad." Or, y'know, meeting a feminist that doesn't yell at you when you say, "Why?" It does wonders.
So, if I want to answer OP for a second time, I would say that there's absolutely a percentage of feminists that are opening to questioning the reasons behind what they do. I would also say that there's a percentage that don't. You'll meet both kinds, and at that point it becomes a good idea to separate the chaff from the wheat and figure out who the best people are to represent the movement.
Meeting the right feminists does wonderful things for your image of them. Same goes for democrats, republicans, Jews, Christians... I mean, look at the current pope. For a pope, he's doing a pretty badass job. This is a pope that makes me look at religion and go, "Hey, maybe this isn't all that bad." Or, y'know, meeting a feminist that doesn't yell at you when you say, "Why?" It does wonders.
So, if I want to answer OP for a second time, I would say that there's absolutely a percentage of feminists that are opening to questioning the reasons behind what they do. I would also say that there's a percentage that don't. You'll meet both kinds, and at that point it becomes a good idea to separate the chaff from the wheat and figure out who the best people are to represent the movement.
0
Cruz
Dope Stone Lion
Ideation wrote...
When I look back at OP, it looks like it mentions that specifically, the feminists he talked to were your good ol' college-age feminists. And, like I said, every group is going to have people that do shitty things. Feminists getting angry when somebody questions their views? Yeah, that boat's going to go nowhere, and it's going to go nowhere fast. They're not going to get people onto their side of the fence by getting angry and yelling-- they're going to convince people by coming back with a calm explanation of what they stand for.Meeting the right feminists does wonderful things for your image of them. Same goes for democrats, republicans, Jews, Christians... I mean, look at the current pope. For a pope, he's doing a pretty badass job. This is a pope that makes me look at religion and go, "Hey, maybe this isn't all that bad." Or, y'know, meeting a feminist that doesn't yell at you when you say, "Why?" It does wonders.
So, if I want to answer OP for a second time, I would say that there's absolutely a percentage of feminists that are opening to questioning the reasons behind what they do. I would also say that there's a percentage that don't. You'll meet both kinds, and at that point it becomes a good idea to separate the chaff from the wheat and figure out who the best people are to represent the movement.
Yes, every group is going to do shitty things, and sometimes those shitty things are so ingrained in public circles and people's perceptions of others that it doesn't isolate them. You don't have to be a crazy feminist to spout nonsense like 1 in every 4 women will be raped, or that women own less than 1 percent of capital/property. I personally believe well intentioned moderates can be the most dangerous groups, since they're easily swayed by things that just "seem right" rather than the actual situations.
Again this isn't nor does it have to be about any specific subset of feminist, like you're trying to make it out be. It's not about groups doing shitty things and then having us point at it. It's about questioning different aspects, methods, commonly held believes, etc. etc.
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[size=10][color=red]I think dismissive feminists are always wrong. The ones who don't allow counter arguments or even people to agree to disagree on some of their points. It's not really healthy or professional in any debate.
Especially on social networking sites, I think it's important to recognize people who are all talk and no walk. Real life participation of rallies and protests are IMPORTANT for development where you're trying to fight for a cause. Does anyone hear anymore about "writing to your local politician" anymore? What about actual protests on the news? It's haltered by the use of social networking. While using S.N. sites for fast news updates and a digital soapbox is nice and dandy, physical representation is better imo[/color][/h]
Especially on social networking sites, I think it's important to recognize people who are all talk and no walk. Real life participation of rallies and protests are IMPORTANT for development where you're trying to fight for a cause. Does anyone hear anymore about "writing to your local politician" anymore? What about actual protests on the news? It's haltered by the use of social networking. While using S.N. sites for fast news updates and a digital soapbox is nice and dandy, physical representation is better imo[/color][/h]
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Well I do know some feminists are a bit too passionate that it end up making them look bad or wrong to most. Forgot the name of the woman who looks at video game stuff but I checked one of her video regarding Starfox Adventure, which was really good with valid point here and there, until near the end it was all gone to waste as she slam her point on saying something along the line that ALL men thought like that.
Now I do enjoy seeing damsel in distress but I do not like it being handled poorly ala faux action girl tropes or by degrading a character such as Samus in Other M. I do believe feminists consider what they are about to say but some let their drive push them a bit too far making very basic but terrible mistake when arguing.
Now I do enjoy seeing damsel in distress but I do not like it being handled poorly ala faux action girl tropes or by degrading a character such as Samus in Other M. I do believe feminists consider what they are about to say but some let their drive push them a bit too far making very basic but terrible mistake when arguing.
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Speaking of feminism, i recall reading a very well constructed argument against the movement.
http://check-your-privilege-feminists.tumblr.com/post/95979451581/i-dont-understand-how-are-you-not-a-feminist
It pretty much sums up how i feel. I feel if you're going to argue a point you should at least use statistics that are correct.
Also from a "feminazi" view i don't see many of them lurking the fakku! forums. A lot of the doujin i read people would bring up as "degrading". And i read a ton here.
http://check-your-privilege-feminists.tumblr.com/post/95979451581/i-dont-understand-how-are-you-not-a-feminist
It pretty much sums up how i feel. I feel if you're going to argue a point you should at least use statistics that are correct.
Also from a "feminazi" view i don't see many of them lurking the fakku! forums. A lot of the doujin i read people would bring up as "degrading". And i read a ton here.
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I Feed Things wrote...
Speaking of feminism, i recall reading a very well constructed argument against the movement.http://check-your-privilege-feminists.tumblr.com/post/95979451581/i-dont-understand-how-are-you-not-a-feminist
It pretty much sums up how i feel. I feel if you're going to argue a point you should at least use statistics that are correct.
Also from a "feminazi" view i don't see many of them lurking the fakku! forums. A lot of the doujin i read people would bring up as "degrading". And i read a ton here.
Wow man, thanks for posting this. Damn, there's enough information here to make a documentary out of it!
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I think women are better than men, actually. Maybe we could try to live up to their standards, ne?
0
JavaSutra wrote...
I think women are better than men, actually. Maybe we could try to live up to their standards, ne?
Try harder.
0
Misaki_Chi
Fakku Nurse
김치 wrote...
I'm not very clear on what exactly feminism (corrected for ya) is. can someone enlighten me?In a nutshell feminism is defined as; the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.
There are many groups and subgroups to feminism, some being more conservative, some being more extreme, other's wanting certain rights other groups don't care about or are not as important. I don't know much more past this extent myself since I'm not an activist, but some groups do well and other's which you will often see on the internet are a bit extreme and miss the mark on what they are trying to invoke in society.
The discussion of this post is on whether feminists will admit their faults if and when they are proven wrong. Everyone has the ability to be wrong, but some groups can take such views as mentioned a bit extreme to the point where they try to believe/make others believe what they have to say is the truth. I good example is a youtube video that was mentioned in the random section where a woman walks around New York for 10 hours to see what sort of reaction she would get while only wears a tight t-shirt and jeans. The video was a poor misrepresentation of sexual harassment against women because most of the comments were not harassment and realistically if you go around wears tight ass jeans and a tight Tee, chances are you may get a cat call or two eventually.
I'm not overly fond of some women who call themselves feminists only because of their actions, but some who have taken on the title aren't so bad; it's more about the person then anything really though feminists have such a bad reputation nowadays that most people have developed anti-feminist groups which seems a bit pointless to me, but again it's just because I don't care either way.
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Ok, let's see, how do I put this delicately...
I'd like to talk about a good friend of mine. For now, let's just call her M. I first met her a bit under a year ago. After one date that didn't work out all too well, we decided we were better off as friends. I still don't know all the details of her personal history, but the bits and pieces I have learned make it a bit difficult for me to respond civilly to people bashing feminism. In case it matters, I'm a guy.
M had a fairly standard midwestern small-town upbringing. She was the purity ring wearing, wait-until-marriage churchgoing good girl - you know the type. Then, when she was fourteen, the guy who gave her that purity ring changed his mind and raped her on a church retreat. The church knew about this. The church didn't care about this.
That by itself would have been bad enough. By the time I met her, she was in her early 20's and had experienced this six times at the hands of six different people, which has left her with one of the worst cases of PTSD that I've ever heard of, never mind actually encountered. Now, odds are pretty good that the first thought you had when you read that last sentence was "What the hell was she doing that let this happen six times?" And therein lies the problem.
Let's change the crime, just for the sake of a thought experiment. Let's say that instead of rape, we're talking about assault and battery. If I said that on six separate occasions she had been beaten so badly that she had to spend a week in the hospital, and that she still has a hard time walking around, would your first thought still be judgment about what she was doing when it happened? Would you still ask what she was wearing at the time, and assume that she had somehow provoked her attackers? Or would your first reaction be sympathy towards the victim of a violent crime?
Thought so.
Now, here's the thing - the logic that blames victims for rape is rooted in the same culture that sees women as objects. It's where we get supreme court decisions that say a corporation's judgment about a woman's body trumps hers. It's where we get Elliot Rodgers - and, to use a less extreme example, all the "nice guys" of the world who think of women as coin-op machines where you can put attention in and get sex out. Its where we see cases like Steubenville, where a passed out girl being gang raped at a party becomes a community joke - and when the perpetrators are given an incredibly light sentence, the media coverage focuses on how promising they were and how tragic it is that their lives are going to be ruined. It's where a man can be praised for having numerous sexual partners, and a woman condemned for the same.
I am a feminist because if I ever have a daughter - no, let me rephrase that. I'm a feminist because that's not a world anyone should have to grow up in.
I'd like to talk about a good friend of mine. For now, let's just call her M. I first met her a bit under a year ago. After one date that didn't work out all too well, we decided we were better off as friends. I still don't know all the details of her personal history, but the bits and pieces I have learned make it a bit difficult for me to respond civilly to people bashing feminism. In case it matters, I'm a guy.
M had a fairly standard midwestern small-town upbringing. She was the purity ring wearing, wait-until-marriage churchgoing good girl - you know the type. Then, when she was fourteen, the guy who gave her that purity ring changed his mind and raped her on a church retreat. The church knew about this. The church didn't care about this.
That by itself would have been bad enough. By the time I met her, she was in her early 20's and had experienced this six times at the hands of six different people, which has left her with one of the worst cases of PTSD that I've ever heard of, never mind actually encountered. Now, odds are pretty good that the first thought you had when you read that last sentence was "What the hell was she doing that let this happen six times?" And therein lies the problem.
Let's change the crime, just for the sake of a thought experiment. Let's say that instead of rape, we're talking about assault and battery. If I said that on six separate occasions she had been beaten so badly that she had to spend a week in the hospital, and that she still has a hard time walking around, would your first thought still be judgment about what she was doing when it happened? Would you still ask what she was wearing at the time, and assume that she had somehow provoked her attackers? Or would your first reaction be sympathy towards the victim of a violent crime?
Thought so.
Now, here's the thing - the logic that blames victims for rape is rooted in the same culture that sees women as objects. It's where we get supreme court decisions that say a corporation's judgment about a woman's body trumps hers. It's where we get Elliot Rodgers - and, to use a less extreme example, all the "nice guys" of the world who think of women as coin-op machines where you can put attention in and get sex out. Its where we see cases like Steubenville, where a passed out girl being gang raped at a party becomes a community joke - and when the perpetrators are given an incredibly light sentence, the media coverage focuses on how promising they were and how tragic it is that their lives are going to be ruined. It's where a man can be praised for having numerous sexual partners, and a woman condemned for the same.
I am a feminist because if I ever have a daughter - no, let me rephrase that. I'm a feminist because that's not a world anyone should have to grow up in.
0
mrpokeylope wrote...
Ok, let's see, how do I put this delicately...I'd like to talk about a good friend of mine. For now, let's just call her M. I first met her a bit under a year ago. After one date that didn't work out all too well, we decided we were better off as friends. I still don't know all the details of her personal history, but the bits and pieces I have learned make it a bit difficult for me to respond civilly to people bashing feminism. In case it matters, I'm a guy.
M had a fairly standard midwestern small-town upbringing. She was the purity ring wearing, wait-until-marriage churchgoing good girl - you know the type. Then, when she was fourteen, the guy who gave her that purity ring changed his mind and raped her on a church retreat. The church knew about this. The church didn't care about this.
That by itself would have been bad enough. By the time I met her, she was in her early 20's and had experienced this six times at the hands of six different people, which has left her with one of the worst cases of PTSD that I've ever heard of, never mind actually encountered. Now, odds are pretty good that the first thought you had when you read that last sentence was "What the hell was she doing that let this happen six times?" And therein lies the problem.
Let's change the crime, just for the sake of a thought experiment. Let's say that instead of rape, we're talking about assault and battery. If I said that on six separate occasions she had been beaten so badly that she had to spend a week in the hospital, and that she still has a hard time walking around, would your first thought still be judgment about what she was doing when it happened? Would you still ask what she was wearing at the time, and assume that she had somehow provoked her attackers? Or would your first reaction be sympathy towards the victim of a violent crime?
Thought so.
Getting raped or assaulted six times by six different people in six separate occasions all in 10 years or less sounds a bit farfetched, but lets suppose its true. I would question how one gets themselves into the same situation time and time again regardless of if its rape or assault and battery. I think most people would learn the lesson after just the first time. Don't get into a situation where those are the outcomes.
Now, here's the thing - the logic that blames victims for rape is rooted in the same culture that sees women as objects. It's where we get supreme court decisions that say a corporation's judgment about a woman's body trumps hers. It's where we get Elliot Rodgers - and, to use a less extreme example, all the "nice guys" of the world who think of women as coin-op machines where you can put attention in and get sex out. Its where we see cases like Steubenville, where a passed out girl being gang raped at a party becomes a community joke - and when the perpetrators are given an incredibly light sentence, the media coverage focuses on how promising they were and how tragic it is that their lives are going to be ruined. It's where a man can be praised for having numerous sexual partners, and a woman condemned for the same.
Curious by what you are talking about with the corporation comment. As for the rest there are bad people in the world but that does not mean that people in general are bad.
I am a feminist because if I ever have a daughter - no, let me rephrase that. I'm a feminist because that's not a world anyone should have to grow up in.
You make it sound like we don't live in a good world. While it still needs some work its come quite a ways since even just a 100 years ago. However lets also realize that the world will never be perfect.