Kill or Not to Kill
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The Jesus wrote...
Nate River wrote...
GSDAkatsuki wrote...
Killing is normalno, my friend, u seriously can't say that out loud in public(i tried in my grade school, and got my ass kicked), Killing is NOT normal, if killing was normal, i wouldn't have started this topic in the first place
In public, people, no matter how staunch they are, are heavily influenced by the way others will perceive the quality of their character. Its not necessarily a matter of how you will be seen, but how you'll survive. Like you said, you got your ass kicked for saying that. However, it doesn't mean its wrong and it doesn't take away from the possibility that anyone, including the people who kicked your ass, could have been in agreement with you and just said nothing. Its natural for humans to say something favorable despite whether they believe it or not. For anyone, self-sufficiency aside, its hard to imagine being able to survive in a society that not only shuns you, but hates you to the point where they'll beat the hell out of you for what you believe.
In regards to the topic of the conversation, I have to disagree with you. I don't just think that killing is normal for humans, it is. Morally, ethically, and blah blah blah, it may seem as if there is something wrong with killing, but that's just bullshit. Living life is about just that, living. Its not about someone else living their lives, its not about how much good you do, and its not about who goes to heaven or hell at the end of the day. Human instinct is to survive. That means that if their well-being is being hindered by another person, that person better step aside or expect the worst. My biggest qualm with religion is not that it restricts mankind's freedom to think for themself, but because in emphasizing the value of human life it is actually sending the opposite message, that life isn't sacred. Saying don't kill because its bad or "turn the other cheek" is tantamount to saying jeopardize your own well-being for the sake of morality. Morality is subjective. There is a branch of philosophy devoted to morals and ethics and after all the time and effort poured into it, we still can't come to a definitive answer as to what is "morally right." If I'm put in a situation where I have to choose between my own life and another's and I see no other choice, I'll have blood on my hands because I want to survive and as far as I can tell its not as if that person wouldn't do the same in my situation.
In your scenario there is more to it than just "will you kill the person or let yourself be killed?" Instead of being happy that you got out of it alive or mourn the fact that you had to kill another, you need to be deciding what to do with the person who put you in this situation. There's no telling whether they're not going to kill you anyway. So what would you do there? Would you wait and see or would you do what you had to do to ensure your survival. You're right back in the kill or be killed situation, only now its not so much a moral issue as it is a matter of uncertainty. This person is depraved and by way of your actions already has blood on their hands. Do you need a second to think whether they should live or die? You may not have a second, you might be dead before you can even collect yourself.
so let me get this straight, the natural human instinct to survive and the actions of morally correct responses conflict each other or may even undefine each other in a sense that one can only make one choice out of the two. In a way, u explained how all the morality, the ethical philosophy is just plain bullshit when it comes down right to where ur life should be endangered, yes i should agree to that of course, one should struggle for his own life base on the most natural instinct of possibly all creatures, - to survive, they say that only in ur last moments, ur true self opens up. but wouldn't that be simply cruel, after all, what separate the humans and the other species is the heightened ability to think and act according to correct scenarios that one would expect, all these years, humans have come up with the so called common senses and these morals and philosophical understanding of life, even religions themselves are simply rules restricting people to live their life in these so-called ideal ways, but isn't that what made us "human", we decide to make "choices" based on our human instincts, but wouldn't the so called humanity be included as well? There's nothing wrong with killing, but the reason u can't public speak it out loud is because the common senses that they established over the years tell us the exact opposite, isn't that right?(as usual, ur flawless arguments and opinions that i cannot go up against)
and let's not go into deeper angles, since many of us here will be confused, it's a good idea for us to merely discuss the present dilemma in front of us, instead of thinking too much into the later future.
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Waar
FAKKU Moderator
dålif wrote...
The relatives emotions are just emotions, the feelings of humans has very little to do with the world.
The victim won't make a diffrence in this world or not, if you believe he would have than he may just aswell play an important role in the world of the afterlife.
If you killed every single person who ever knew that person, and then killed everyone who knew them until not a single sentinent being remains on the whole planet, who will complain?
Can immorality exist without us fools trying to grasp the meaning of existance?
well, you're wrong as human emotions are about the only thing that are important in this instance. I don't believe you would be asking that question had you ever lost a loved one. The reason killing is bad is that ending a life is wrong, that person will cease to exist and who are you/who am I to decide who should no longer be living? Being important in the afterlife is a moot point as we are unaware if there is such a place... Finally, yes killing humanity would be a grave mistake, we may have our flaws but we have also created some of the greatest things in existence (not debatable, simply a fact).
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Waar wrote...
dålif wrote...
The relatives emotions are just emotions, the feelings of humans has very little to do with the world.
The victim won't make a diffrence in this world or not, if you believe he would have than he may just aswell play an important role in the world of the afterlife.
If you killed every single person who ever knew that person, and then killed everyone who knew them until not a single sentinent being remains on the whole planet, who will complain?
Can immorality exist without us fools trying to grasp the meaning of existance?
well, you're wrong as human emotions are about the only thing that are important in this instance. I don't believe you would be asking that question had you ever lost a loved one. The reason killing is bad is that ending a life is wrong, that person will cease to exist and who are you/who am I to decide who should no longer be living? Being important in the afterlife is a moot point as we are unaware if there is such a place... Finally, yes killing humanity would be a grave mistake, we may have our flaws but we have also created some of the greatest things in existence (not debatable, simply a fact).
We have just about as much right to decide which cow to butcher for steaks as we do to pick which human being to kill, and we pick a cow without batting an eyelash, yet when someone mentions people, most people go into a self-righteous fury about the value of human life and such.
Point being, Humans are animals, and all animals are fair game. It's what drives nature.
And, to clarify, I have lost loved ones. My mother, I couldn't give any less of a shit about, but my grandmother, Grandfather, Grand-Grandmother, and Grand-Grandfather have died in my lifetime. I grieved for each of them, but chose to celebrate their life instead of mourn their loss.
Beer and expensive steak do wonders to dispel sadness at after-funerals.
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You are indeed right that I haven't yet experienced the death of someone close to me. I also think it might have been a misstake to use a provoking strategy promote my real question. Does it matter if all of humanity, if the whole earth ceased to exist?
Can you honestly say we have done great things other than to ourself? Our so-called intellect is an attribute we have assigned to ourself, as we are the only ones capable of judging and giving attributes on this planet. Without us, there is none to praise our greatness.
And even with all our "glory", we will all die in the end. And it will make no difference to the dead that none will mourn or remember.
Can you honestly say we have done great things other than to ourself? Our so-called intellect is an attribute we have assigned to ourself, as we are the only ones capable of judging and giving attributes on this planet. Without us, there is none to praise our greatness.
And even with all our "glory", we will all die in the end. And it will make no difference to the dead that none will mourn or remember.
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dålif wrote...
You are indeed right that I haven't yet experienced the death of someone close to me. I also think it might have been a misstake to use a provoking strategy promote my real question. Does it matter if all of humanity, if the whole earth ceased to exist? Can you honestly say we have done great things other than to ourself? Our so-called intellect is an attribute we have assigned to ourself, as we are the only ones capable of judging and giving attributes on this planet. Without us, there is none to praise our greatness.
And even with all our "glory", we will all die in the end. And it will make no difference to the dead that none will mourn or remember.
how did we get there?
i do not know why, but the topic seem to make u guys "cold" for some reason, killing is normal, killing is helpful, killing is right, the victims don't matter. what happened to "humanity"? Don't anyone feel the sympathy anymore, the anger and rage for cold-blooded murders, the sadness for deceased ones?
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Oh, just expressing why I think it is arrogant to consider killing a mere human right or wrong universally.
of course, from the view of society, on may justify or not. By predicting futher actions of the individual whom may live or die, we can take stance when it comes to if his life will have a negative impact on others, such as killing a criminal. Or saving oneself. Not that we can predict things that well, yet atleast.
of course, from the view of society, on may justify or not. By predicting futher actions of the individual whom may live or die, we can take stance when it comes to if his life will have a negative impact on others, such as killing a criminal. Or saving oneself. Not that we can predict things that well, yet atleast.
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ive said it before and ill say it again: life is precious. i really wish we could comprehend choices that excluded the final curtain but unfortunately weve relished death as the true material possesion. if you want somebody to suffer worse then you have, you dont break their plasma television... you break their arm, and probably then some. its essentially impossible for this mentality to work in real life and i know it never will, it would take the majorities influence to even consider it.
in an unreal world, vash the stampede from trigun has my vote. everyone deserves a second chance and no one should be condemned to unnatural death, consideration and understanding could prevail if we all just let it. its all too ritualistic... i swear if i were capable of his righteous actions id be out there every night saving lives.
in an unreal world, vash the stampede from trigun has my vote. everyone deserves a second chance and no one should be condemned to unnatural death, consideration and understanding could prevail if we all just let it. its all too ritualistic... i swear if i were capable of his righteous actions id be out there every night saving lives.
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Waar
FAKKU Moderator
"We have just about as much right to decide which cow to butcher for steaks as we do to pick which human being to kill, and we pick a cow without batting an eyelash, yet when someone mentions people, most people go into a self-righteous fury about the value of human life and such. "
I'm sorry but you're being dumb... The difference between me and a cow is that I am self aware, I have a mind that can process thought, I make decisions based on logic and emotions and I don not simply live on instinct... During my lifetime I may discover the cure for cancer, I may save the lives of millions; you can't say that about a cow...
Does anyone really need to ask what important things has humanity created? Art, literature, music, mathematics, science all inventions of man which are not only beautiful themselves but also lead to the advancement of our race and the creation of other beautiful things. Have you ever watched a show, read a book, heard a song which made you cry? Some music, such as Bach's Cello Suite 1 have been able to move me to tears in the past, you can't tell me the creation of those things are meaningless. If humanity were to cease to exist they will still have mattered because they did exist and that will never change the now.
The value of human life is not measurable, it's too important to try and quantify. Yes Humans have done things in the past that are terrible and would certainly cause one to question our existence but we as a species are also capable of great acts of kindness and love, can you really discount those acts as if they don't matter? I can't no matter how much I've wanted to.
I'm sorry but you're being dumb... The difference between me and a cow is that I am self aware, I have a mind that can process thought, I make decisions based on logic and emotions and I don not simply live on instinct... During my lifetime I may discover the cure for cancer, I may save the lives of millions; you can't say that about a cow...
Does anyone really need to ask what important things has humanity created? Art, literature, music, mathematics, science all inventions of man which are not only beautiful themselves but also lead to the advancement of our race and the creation of other beautiful things. Have you ever watched a show, read a book, heard a song which made you cry? Some music, such as Bach's Cello Suite 1 have been able to move me to tears in the past, you can't tell me the creation of those things are meaningless. If humanity were to cease to exist they will still have mattered because they did exist and that will never change the now.
The value of human life is not measurable, it's too important to try and quantify. Yes Humans have done things in the past that are terrible and would certainly cause one to question our existence but we as a species are also capable of great acts of kindness and love, can you really discount those acts as if they don't matter? I can't no matter how much I've wanted to.
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Well, everything you mentioned only matters to us, without us there would be no value in those things. It's not like a cow would praise us for landing on the moon.
Also, the diffrence between a human and a rock (or a cow) may seem important to us humans, but still we may not be much diffrent.
The concept of free will is based upon that the individual is "free" to make choices based on her own experiences. The orginal source of experience will most likely always be external. As such, all human inventions and ideas can always be attributed to our surrounding world, the laws of physics, the condition of our planet ect. And all your experience and thus your choices are also bound by these laws, just like a rock within a gravitational field, yet so much more complex.
Considering how well the human mind functions, it can't be made from a random factor such as freedom, as everything we observe seem to follow a logical pattern of cause-effect which trails back into the unknown past, possibly to the very beginning, if such a thing can exist in a world where everything is cause by something from the before.
Also, the diffrence between a human and a rock (or a cow) may seem important to us humans, but still we may not be much diffrent.
The concept of free will is based upon that the individual is "free" to make choices based on her own experiences. The orginal source of experience will most likely always be external. As such, all human inventions and ideas can always be attributed to our surrounding world, the laws of physics, the condition of our planet ect. And all your experience and thus your choices are also bound by these laws, just like a rock within a gravitational field, yet so much more complex.
Considering how well the human mind functions, it can't be made from a random factor such as freedom, as everything we observe seem to follow a logical pattern of cause-effect which trails back into the unknown past, possibly to the very beginning, if such a thing can exist in a world where everything is cause by something from the before.