The 'Fluff Principle'

Dear Jacob,

I've been visiting Fakku for the better part of 6 years (roughly since early 2007). I've seen it go through great strides forward in terms of content, quality, and overall site design. As a web designer and administrator, I think you understand the importance of not only content, but also user interaction with content and users' interactions with each other.

With the introduction of the up/downvote system to comments, you should be aware of what is called the 'Fluff Principle', which was originally explained by Paul Graham on his website on the topic of Hacker News (I recommend reading the entire thing here: http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html )



I don't mean to exaggerate; the content itself (translated doujinshi etc.) is not up or downvoted on, only the comments, which doesn't have any impact on content rising to the top or sinking to the bottom. However, comments under most content are almost always atrocious. It appears that some people 'gang up' and 'downvote bomb' comments that they disagree with; whether this ganging up is deliberate or a result of groupthink cannot be known without seeing if it's the same users downvoting the same comments. For example, in this recently posted translation ( https://www.fakku.net/doujinshi/sister-paradise-chapter-3-english ), a perfectly healthy download link was downvoted to the bottom for no reason other than for existing.

Users are forming pitchfork mobs out of hate and disgust for content and/or translation groups that they dislike, making it unpleasant for users who actually like the content, and more difficult for them to enjoy the content (in the form that severely downvoted comments are automatically hidden, even if they are helpful; i.e. download links). Meanwhile, unhelpful comments such as sunglasses memes, ASCII macros, and "popular opinion"/"tyranny of the majority" often get upvoted to the top. This type of groupthink has become the norm in the comments section, and while it doesn't bother most people, I think it interferes with the people who just want to enjoy the content presented by Fakku. And, let's face it: Fakku is home to many different types of people, some of whom might be alienated by the kind of vitriolic hate that shows up in the comments for fetishes that are 'unpopular'. I think this is akin to hating yaoi and traps because it's "gay".

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The question now is: how do you solve this problem? There are several approaches to take, one of which has already been mentioned. In order of least to most severe, they are:

• Comment moderation and have many moderators

• Introduce an algorithm that prioritizes helpful comments such as download links

• Eliminate the up/downvote system

• Eliminate the comments section altogether

Obviously the latter two are least desirable, as it would be unfair to all the users who want to express their opinions. I think a combination of the former two solutions would probably be best.

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If you want some additional resources and ideas on how to tackle this problem, please read the following discussions:

http://www.reddit.com/r/circlebroke/comments/vqy9y/dear_circlebrokers_what_changes_would_you_make_to/c56x55f

http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueReddit/comments/wprzg/to_the_moderator_is_it_too_late_to_reverse/

http://www.reddit.com/r/ideasfortheadmins/comments/rbwn4/rank_threads_and_the_frontpage_by_discussion/

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Edit 1: clarified that the download link is indeed healthy.

Edit 2: fixed a typo

Again, this will take a lot of time for the mods. And a lot of people might report comments, for no valid reason. Other then that, I see on problem with it.

Also one reason why the DDL got down votes could be that it was invalid or removed. I didn't download it so it's just a theory.

I just downloaded it, and it's a perfectly healthy download link. I'm confident that it just got downvoted out of hatred rather than for any substantial reason.

Jacob is currently the only one who can remove comments on manga. So while you're asking for a report function it wont work without additional control for the mods. A reminder before you continue: we most likely wont add a system that gives random users more control over comments(no votes to remove comments) and the best you can hope for is that we allow helpers and mods the ability to control comments; that is simply how we do things here.

I am also an avid reader of Hacker News, so the article you linked was particularly interesting. In an ideal FAKKU (where the features I intend to implement get implemented) most of the issues you pointed out should be resolved.

For example I will be bringing the download section back. This will provide a page for FAKKU hosted download links and outside download links. It will look something like this: https://www.fakku.net/manga/bird-cage-english/download And from then on there will be no need for comments with download links.

Currently comments are sorted by rank, this is not intentional. Eventually there will be 2 - 5 top comments at the top of the page (sorted by rank), and the rest of the page should be sorted by date. This will at least ensure that new comments have their chance to shine.

But there is still the issue of groups mass downvoting comments they don't like. Unfortunately we'll have to deal with this on a case by case basis and ban people when they game the system (we'll eventually need more moderators).

All in all I think the comments are for the most part good.

What about just changing it back to listing in chronological order? the vote system could remain, but it wouldn't effect where the comment is on the list. it might encourage people to read more comments than just the top few too. and then(idk if it's even possible), maybe some kind of more noticeable highlight for the highest/lowest voted comments? like the color of the text, header, or background for those two?



P.S.
the two subjects i see getting the most voter attention are anything anti ntr, or pro vanilla gets mass up votes, and vice versa.

Thanks for replying. I understand that changes take time to implement and I know you're working hard to implement them. This puts my mind at ease.

Originally this came from seeing the same problems on Reddit, where I moderate a subreddit, hence all the links at the bottom of my OP which I've used for myself to address these same issues. I look forward to many more years of Fakku :)

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Reddit has comment sorting with various categories (new, hot, controversial) but it may be smart to restrict it to chronological only.

And, yes, as I've said before, many of the comments related to 'unpopular' fetishes often get downvoted by mobs. Probably groupthink rather than any organized mob, but it's still an issue.

a sorting feature is an excellent idea. just by chronologic and votes would be enough i think. and maybe both ways for each(highest/lowest, oldest/newest first).