Opinion on philosophical quotes regarding Reality.

I came across this story in one of the shows I have been watching, and only caught a glimpse and couldn't completely comprehend the original quote, so i delved further and came across this piece of philosophy;

"Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chou. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man. Between a man and a butterfly there is necessarily a distinction. The transition is called the transformation of material things." -Zhuangzi

I was quite touched by this thought provoking item I continued to look around and found yet another piece, I would like to hear an opinion on as well;

"How do I know that enjoying life is not a delusion? How do I know that in hating death we are not like people who got lost in early childhood and do not know the way home? Lady Li was the child of a border guard in Ai. When first captured by the state of Jin, she wept so much her clothes were soaked. But after she entered the palace, shared the king's bed, and dined on the finest meats, she regretted her tears. How do I know that the dead do not regret their previous longing for life? One who dreams of drinking wine may in the morning weep; one who dreams weeping may in the morning go out to hunt. During our dreams we do not know we are dreaming. We may even dream of interpreting a dream. Only on waking do we know it was a dream. Only after the great awakening will we realize that this is the great dream. And yet fools think they are awake, presuming to know that they are rulers or herdsmen. How dense! You and Confucius are both dreaming, and I who say you are a dream am also a dream. Such is my tale. It will probably be called preposterous, but after ten thousand generations there may be a great sage who will be able to explain it, a trivial interval equivalent to the passage from morning to night." -Lady Li

--In this, I would like to hear the opinions and various interpretations you all find in these two quotes.

I really find quotes like this to be very annoying. I just accept that the present is reality, and act upon that.

I hardly ever dream, so this is really easy for me

...What a dickish mentality steeped in ignorance. "I don't dream, so when other people talk about how dreams make reality skewed for them I find it annoying. Keep that shit to yourself and let me enjoy reality as I see it."

Well sorry, but the fact of the matter is that reality ISN'T as easy as, "I see it, so it's there." And if you operate off of the axiomatic idea that existence exists, then don't ever, EVER get involved in a conversation about epistemology like this, because that IS a vital issue that's being introduced all the time in the philosophical community. And people respond to it in a great number of ways. Some accept the Cartesian Cogito(I think therefore I am) as a sufficient proof of subjective reality, and presume everything else to be a probable illusion. These people are solipsistic epstomologists. Some people accept the Cogito and further presume that an objective reality that is reflected somewhat by our senses and evidence of all empirical sorts exists as well, apart from our subjective minds. These people can range from being rationalists, or evidentialists, or logical positivists. SOME people operate from a purely nihilistic "There is no reality" epistemology that don't even accept the Cogito, and find it to be arguable.

You're going to have to deal with all sorts of people who accept all sorts of levels of reality in the world, including those that think that dreams make it probable that existence is just as much a delusion as any dream.

As for me, I accept that reality is separate from my subjective experience for a variety of reasons, mainly utilitarian ones(I.E. I operate off the presumption that existence is objective and independent from my thought. I cannot manipulate reality with my mind. I don't accept that my mind is capable of making up everything that is within existence, including beautiful music, powerful conflicting speeches and a vast variety of different philosophies.)

That's not what I said; that statement is implying that what I see becomes objective reality. A quote that would more accurately describe my position on this would be "I see it, so I act like it's there"

I'd prefer you explain what's wrong with my beliefs before you go on insulting them

K, I could easily do that by cut and pasting my original response to you. If you can't understand the problem with what you said from my original response, you simply don't understand. Your position is an oversimplified utilitarian, "Things are as they appear." without any justification, without any pathway to get there, without any explanation as to how you implement this.

In short, if you have an epistemology, actually describe what it is.

And nice act of hypocrisy by the way. So I should explain what's wrong with your beliefs instead of just insulting them? Great, then your original response "I really find quotes like these to be very annoying." without any explanation as to why, is still completely unjustified.

I don't understand what the stuff in italic means. You implement this by acting like a human being living a normal life, and not by acting like you're in a delusional world where nothing matters.




um...
That was my opinion of a philosophical quote that I posted in a thread titled "Opinion on philosophical quotes regarding reality".

The reason why I find the quotes annoying is because I have trouble understanding all these alternate-reality dream theories. You say my position "oversimplifies" this concept, but (in my opinion) I think philosophers over-complicate this concept.

I don't really know how to put it....
it's like as if right now what people are seeing is the reality but at some cases it is not really a reality what people think it is or what they believe in.

Kinda like the matrix.
As if the reality you lived in is not the reality you really live in but rather you waking up finding yourself in another life.

As for the second qoute:
It is extremely difficult to even interpret what she said because my intelligent are not in reach of that answer or maybe I cannot find a good explanation.

I am terribly sorry if I could not give an intelligent opinion to that, but this topic is really interesting.

*rubs eyes* Really? You don't understand what it means to draw a logical line to a piece of knowledge like, "Existence is independent and objective"? Again, simply saying, "You live like you're in a normal life" is not only not an implementation, but it's just one, not TERRIBLY convincing justification.

Once more, if you're going to say "Existence exists" then great, please don't mind the rest of us who have an inkling of knowing what we're talking about when we snicker at you.



Wonderful cop out.

"It was just my opinion, jeez..."

Great, then you'll be perfectly ok when I say that your statement being steeped in ignorance is 'my opinion' and you won't feel any need to argue it, nor ask me to justify the attack, now will you?(nevermind the fact that I already did before you even asked me to)

Also, is that not a tacit admission of ignorance? "I find these quotes annoying because I have trouble understanding them."

GRRR! YOUR PHILOSOPHY CONFOUNDS ME! SHUSH UP! TOO MUCH THINKING!

I never said that, nor did you ask that.



I don't see how that's not an implementation, but whatever.

maybe it would be easier if you would explain the same thing. So far, your explanation of your belief is "without any justification, without any pathway to get there, without any explanation as to how you implement this."



you said that my opinion was "completely unjustified", I don't know how it's a "cop out" to say something so obvious



are you talking about my opinion that it's annoying? or my belief that we should just act upon what we perceive to be reality?




I understand what the quote is saying, but I've never seen enough evidence or reason to convince me that alternate realities could exist. I guess "unconvinced" would be a much better word than "not understanding"

I find the dream mumbo jumbo retarded.
So, what if I am a butterfly having a dream. What does this mean to mean? Nothing. Nothing changes. Everything remains the same. Unless my life happens to suck really bad, then I can just suicide myself out of it, which sounds a bit bad. So nothing good really comes out of this kind of thinking.

If a cut bleeds, and it hurts, and you don't wake up in a bed then you are in reality and not in a comatose state in a 4th dimension.

QFT.

It doesn't if you cannot tell the difference if you cannot change the outcome.



However, I'd like to point out that the second quote is mistaken.



Lucid dreamers know they are dreaming. They can also control their dreams a bit.

This is important to the first quote a well. How do you know if you are dreaming or not?

The answer would be: if you can change the situation by simply willing it, then it is a dream, Wishful thinking doesn't really do anything in the real world.

If you're going to argue "well maybe lucid dreamers are just dreaming they are controlling their dream," then see the QFT I made above. If that were the case, and you have no control over anything, no way to verify one way or another and no effect on how you would live your life in either realm, then it doesn't matter if its a dream or not. Its like flipping a coin over deep ocean where no one can see. It doesn't matter it flips heads or tails; you don't know for sure which side it landed on, and you can't change the results even if you did, and the result has no effect on your life anyway.

It all boils down to this.

This type of philosophical question is not about doubting your vision of reality, but rather an exercise in expanding your mind to accept that the concept of reality is never quite as simple as: 'I see it, so that's the way the world works.'

Philosophical questions, such as this, are not a test of your grasp of reality, but are more to gauge the adaptability of a person's perception. They are designed to spark discussion and debate, because each person views the world based on their own feelings and experiences and are, therefore, uniquely personal. Many bad things have happened in this world, simply because of an unwillingness to try to see the world from another person perspective. All viewpoints are valid, if you grant each person the freedom, and respect, to express those opinions openly without anger or judgment.

As for my interpretation of the 'Butterfly/Man Dream,' it is this: If you dream you are a butterfly, enjoy being a butterfly - Flutter in the breeze and drink from the flowers. The experiences we have in dreams are just as valid as those we have while awake and can be quite life-changing, and deeply personal.

Aha I personally find that looking for a 'raison d'etre' in a world where anything and everything can be lost, is little more than using the time to live, on something to keep yourself distracted. In this I dont neccesarily mean that life is meaningless, simply of less meaning as a whole(to multiple people) rather than to an individual (like myself). Where one individual may find great happiness and love in life another may find nothing but despair and havoc. As a whole society tends to lean towards 'life is valuable, for we are alive' simply because there is no other way to prove that the other people that they say may indeed be nothing but figments of their imagination(As well as the acute possibility of empathy that people would not want that to happen to them because they are alive, and if the other party is too then they would not the situation reversed). -- On that note, I'm one of the stout believers that my brain can indeed create a comprehensive illusory world where anything an everything can be created from the ground up. I wouldn't claim that I was able to create anything like the works of mozart or the conepts that Van Gogh brought to artistry. However I can acknowledge that, if left alone my, or anyones brain, can create something of similar or equal value.

In reference to my own quote, I personally believe that we would be able to tell a dream a part from reality, however, I find it intriguing that, regardless of the 'cut and you awaken' or 'alter the dream and you will know if you are awake' concepts, you can still be a part of something you don't understand. An example of this may be something a long the lines of a VR or so, but staying within the realm of dreams so as to not get yelled at, there are drugs that can increase ones perception and likelyhood to accept a dream as reality, although these drugs are usually used for something else(Normally an anti-depressant I believe, I'll have to check up on that) and it turns out to be a side effect with the person who had dreamt, waking up from a dream where life may have been of a better standing than where they were currently. Of course, for both myself and many others who not only rule with the hope but the possibility that regardless of the 'dreams' we have here, life itself is a dream. Rather than waking up and finding that all of this was not real, wouldn't it be absolutely grand to know, without pause, that you created this world? That the ability of a god, truly is within human hands?

(On a side note, if any of this seems overly confusing I'll rewrite it all, everything comes out of my head in a big jumble so I have trouble sorting it out myself, and expressing myself is an absolute terror aha)

Now I personally approach everything with the full extent of my knowledge, which I am sad to say is incomplete to say the least. My philosophy when approaching situations or topics which interest me is to try to grasp it with the full extent of my knowledge and the belief that everything is connected. (I believe everything is connected due to personal life experiences and a multitude of other things but that's for another time)

I'm sure I'm missing a bit of information but I'm rather famished and can't think comprehensively at the moment so I'll take my leave and add what I can later.
(Also, I hope I was able to give everyone something to think on, and if not, a rather good laugh at my views xD)

Kinda hard to define a solid concept about _Reality_ when you know of another _Reality_
Including the Spiritual one.


Though,if its seperated to _Physical_ Reality and _Immaterial_ Reality,then its more understandable

I personally find it very easy to slip into a dreamlike mentality, especially with the harsh reality around us. People give you shit for no reason, people don't respect each other, and you're often scoffed or laughed at because of your personal beliefs. In such a world, there are those who naturally want to escape. There have been many times that I wished that some event was just some dream, like the passing of my beloved grandmother, my cousin becoming a 'vegetable' and so on. Sadly enough, I eventually snap out of it and feel even more miserable.

Therefore, I decided that I would take reality head on. Dreams and such are good and can provide relief to the tired, but personally I feel that waking up from a dream is harder than just accepting what has happened. So yeah, I'd prefer to take reality head on. Don't get me wrong though, I respect everyone's beliefs, and I find it wrong to enforce one's beliefs onto another by force. Let them dream if they want; it is a luxury that I find painful.