Do Feminists Ever Consider That They Might Be Wrong?

I'm all for equality and such but whenever these extreme feminists speak i just want to throw up.



Feminists that act like this should seriously face criminal charges. Twitter PTSD my ass...

I'm still astonished to witness people confusing androphobia/misandry and feminism...

What I don't get is how so many people say they don't believe in "feminism" or that "feminists are bad" and then go on to list behaviour that has nothing at all to do with feminism and then ascribe it to everyone they don't like. I know I'm brushing up against a "No true Scotsman" fallacy here but I feel like people whose sole interaction with the concept of feminism is Youtube comment sections on Anita Sarkeesian videos, Twitter, and Tumblr don't have a real clue what it's about. Every ideology has asshole adherents but those places are where you go only if you're looking to do some chest beating in support or to go start a fight. Nothing productive comes from them.

The argument that those people are not "true feminists" is kind of the same thing as the "not true christian" thing.

What is true and what is false? And who gets to decide it?

Even if those people are not "true feminists" they sure are louder and have quite the impact.
They are the ones who moved mobs, pulled things from shelves, wrecked careers over something worthless, brought someone like Matt Taylor to tears over a shirt (diminishing to nothing his historic deed in the process) and more importantly they are those who are spreading like a plague and have such a strong presence in the media.

Maybe they are not true feminists or whatever you want to call them, but they are the lie which became the truth.

I think that a major issue is the word "Feminism/Feminist." Clearly there are more than one type.
Feminist can describe someone that seeks equal rights and modernistic views.
Yet at the same time it describes someone that seeks more power over the other sex.

Many people add the word "Extremest" after the word "Feminist." However this strikes a major cord and creates shit-shows. The word Extremest is usually used in connotation with the word terrorist, or some other sort of extremest (insert bad guy word here). Especially in the times that we live in now. The word is viewed as insulting and I think that many people fight for the wrong side because they misunderstand the use of the word. I feel like if a new word where made to differentiate the two it would save alot of time and energy.

But assuming that you are referring to "Extremists" I think that the reason they don't consider the other parties opinions because their argument stems exactly from this disagreement. In the sense that they have no voice, and so when people contradict them, all it does is fuel the fire because this act of contradiction (to them) is viewed as an attack to get them to silence.

I feel like alot of the argument is fake and unanswerable because they are asked in unanswerable ways. The question is made to make you sound like the bad guy. Being anything other than feminist to them makes it sound like you STRONGLY OPPOSE WOMEN'S RIGHTS or whatever.

I think there's too much discussion on this issue when it's actually quite simple (I'm talking feminism as a whole not just OP's original question.).

Fact of the matter is that feminism, in concept is truly a great thing. The problem is the human condition, for example communism in concept is truly a great thing, but, it doesnt work because we are human.

Another similar but much older issue is how Christianity/Islamism are truly good religions in concept, but since many followers interpret the teachings the wrong way it subtracts from the good it was intended to do. This is the same as how feminism is in concept, a good idea but many followers interpret the teachings in the wrong way or take them too far.

To an extent I agree with what you are saying. Truly it is how people interpret things that makes it flawed. People just make it what they want it to be because they (of-course) think that they know best.

Haha, i laughed when i read the "truly good religions in concept" part. Oh boy...

Sorry, for the off-topic.

If you take the time to read the teachings from them they are actually quite good. You find it funny because you have most likely only seen the ugly side and havent taken the time to educate yourself on their fundamental teachings. So yes in concept they are good but as it stands with the people practicing those religions, it's all a joke.

I am not trying to disregard what you said, because I got your point, but you can not just pick and put aside what you like and do not like and call it the true meaning of the teachings. I am mainly talking about christianity, since I used to be religious and there is some grizzly stuff there.
At the end of the day you do not need religion to have morality.
I live by a simple philosophy: Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself.

Anyway, on-topic:

To be honest, I do not think feminism is needed in places like USA and most of Europe, where this ridiculous trend was ironically born. In the eyes of the law women are the same as men, and in some instances women have a clear advantage over men.
I do not understand what people are looking for. Those dumb topics such as objectification and company its just humans being humans and both sexes suffer the same. My whole point about two sides.

There are however places where women rights are clearly needed, but I do not see those discussed nearly as much as those trendy dumb movements.

Talking about feminism, here is a good sample of what it effectively does and how :
L'Oréal-UNESCO Awards

Quite different from trolling and call such lame doing as "being feminist" or as anything else for what it matters.

I could give you pretty detailed answer as to why christianity and islam are not quite good in any sense. You claim i have read/heard only the ugly parts, well it seems you have read/heard only the good parts. It is their fundamental teachings that are by definition evil or the very least not good, and also calling incoherent books that contradicts themselves a good in concept is laughable.

Sorry for the off topic.

I remember reading about how one of the earliest members of feminism was a staunch libertarian and abolitionist. If more were like her, the political climate about women's body right/autonomy, child custody, marriage, etc. etc. would have been much better.

And it's sad seeing how progressive "1984" right thought/words freaks are the face of western feminist. Even google jumped in the progressive bandwagon and hired Progressive abusers to try and end online abuse.(Then again they do say poachers know poachers best so they should be the ones gatekeeping engendered animals)

[edit]
The UN wants a piece of that feminist pie. And for what reason? To police free speech.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/09/24/the-united-nations-has-a-radical-dangerous-vision-for-the-future-of-the-web/

The cherry on top? Men still face more abuse & harassment online. Does the UN really feel the that female ego is fragile and unstable that it needs to make the net regulated by intellectually dishonest control freaks whom also participated in harassment campaigns? (Zoe Quinn)

theyre not wrong, some of them have lost sight of whats actually important and whats bullshit

This doesn't concern women's right activists, but it's spot-on on characters like those acting over stuff like videogaming.

Feminism is itself all about doubting and questioning societal constructs and norms when it comes to sex and gender. Aside from certain widely used understandings and established interpretations, there aren't really any feminist principles to doubt. There are arguments and viewpoints on certain social topics, but then not all feminists would agree on these things. They aren't some hivemind, even if some subsets act like they are (particularly the ones that come out of the internet). And then some are less reflexive and others more so. E.g. they’re people, it depends just like with every other grouping of people and school of thought. I'd argue actual academic feminists consider what their assumptions and foundations are more than most average people when making a claim about something.

If feminists need to reconsider anything major they all usually agree on currently, it's their gender/sex framework. You know, the old gender is socially constructed m/f behaviours and ideas of masculinity/femininity and then sex is actual biology e.g. chromosomes, body shape, smexy parts.

Why does this need to be challenged?

It's simple really. It ignores and trivializes what transgender people go through.

I'm not saying the distinction is itself inherently wrong. It's done alot of good in helping us talk about what male and female really mean and how they figure into our social environment. The problem is when we limit out understanding of M/F to just these two definitions of sex and gender. Doing so ignores too much of what a transgender person actually goes through in relation to their gender identity and makes it just about matching their body with the socially normative yet constructed behaviours and roles they prefers. Some of feminism makes this even worse without intending to by saying the behaviours don't need to be normative nor match the body (implying there's no reason for trans people to actually change their sex). In other words, it suggests being transgender is just a devient lifestyle/belief, and one that paradoxically leads to going against the norm out of a desire to allow one's behaviour to meet with norms (by matching this behaviour to the "correct" sex, instead of matching one's behaviour to their birth sex). Yep, the crippling and isolating internal struggle I've experienced continually since before puberty is just a lifestyle choice...

My inability to ever feel emotionally present in my body was just me struggling with socially constructed gender norms and body issues, and now my decision to actually take steps towards transition, well that's just me feeling like I need to match my sex with the gendered behaviours I like for whatever reason, even though the association of these behaviours with one sex is entirely arbitrary. Yep..


I can go into more detail about what it's really like if anyone's interested. I actually did in the original version of this post that went unposted, but I felt this version fits better at the moment. I get that it's hard for people to really understand what we go through so. Not that I can speak for the experience of all transgender people. Anyway, I know the standard feminist gender/sex definitions definetly do not work in regards to trans issues. They're still useful for somethings but a compromise needs to be made on both ends. Maybe a new language, or just recognition that the word gender is not rigidly bound to a single school of thought's understanding of it.

(I know, I take serious discussion way too serious)

You bring up some valid concerns(especially about some of their views towards trans) and I also agree they're not a hivemind but far too often do I see moderate and radical feminist say and do things that are removed from reality and really off putting. (honestly it's not even "extremist" kill all men type who are dominant when it comes to ridiculous tactics) I think the amount of women or people in general who consider themselves to be feminist has dropped slightly over the years, going from 20%~ to ~18%.

The thing about transpeople is that in some regards their existence undermines feminist talking points about gender and social constructs.(Female/male brains and mannerisms, I honestly do not know enough about the neurology and biology behind the counter point but it shows we're definitely not the same and the way we identify are not social constructs)

To be honest I feel like a lot are just deaf to others concerns. Whether it be men, trans, those of other races and even other women themselves.

I agree、ｓome do need to consider things more holistically and take into account how their position might actually be disempowering certain people, women included. For example, when race and class are brought into the picture feminism can get a bit messy. White educated women telling all other women what they should think and do to be progressive. Yeah.. Don't think I needto explain that any further.

But yeah, I guess I was just trying to get at it being a mixed bag like everything else. I feel like all too often the internet just polarizes people into opposing camps that demonize each other and then never actually bother to talk.

When in my experience going through my undergrad, I've met/read stuff by some people who talked from a feminist position and were really open to other ideas and actual discussion but I've also met and read some who just had tunnel vision whenever something related to gender roles came in and, even though there were other possibilities, they rejected them outright without really taking the time to actually explain why. In doing so, they also encouraged everyone around them to do the same with unexplained claims that something is "sexist" or an expression of the "male privilege" in our society, basically shutting down discussion by latching onto a single facet of something. Unfortunately, these tended to be the ones I could see rallying online. The people who introduce themselves as feminists like it's the defining part of their identity.

Of course someone could just say these vocal groups are still a part of feminism and saying "not all feminists!" is just like saying "not all men!", which was a hashtag joke feminists on social media loved so flipping it against them and my attempt to defend them is only fair...

*sigh*

no one ever thinks they are wrong

I wanted to contribute to this thread but it seems to be a bit of a shit storm sooooo Imma just dump this:

A large majority of modern movements are basically all plots to undermine free-will, science, religion and self-determination by controlling the population with bogus promises 'of a better future' or 'equality for all.' Do not be fooled, if you are religious then this is Devil's/Lucifer's gambit if not then it is simply evil with a smiling face and peace signs as a feint.

Further reading: I encourage all to read these
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/11/pseudoscience_vs_religion__why_religious_kids_arent_less_altruistic.html
http://thefederalist.com/2015/10/19/we-cant-protect-sexual-orientation-because-it-doesnt-mean-anything/
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/09/the_humanist_hoax_of_gender.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/11/keeping_up_with_the_real_racists.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/11/a_plague_of_unruly_children.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/11/where_will_american_refugees_go_.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/11/department_of_education_you_raise_em_we_raze_em.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/09/the_humanist_hoax_of_gender.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/09/of_genderneutral_bathrooms_and_homosexual_dads.html
http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/11/how-our-new-definition-of-freedom-causes-cruelty/
http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/10/blame-the-mommy-wars-for-the-ongoing-mizzou-insanity/
http://thefederalist.com/2015/11/11/the-first-amendment-is-dying/