Arizona's Immigration Law: Racism or Security?
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chiwa wrote...
Tsurayu wrote...
It isn't as though it is hard to become a United States citizen.Check this out for starters: http://www.visaus.com/citizen.html
For a working adult, it's a terribly long and expensive process that is best done with the help of an immigration attorney. If the naturalization route is going to be taken, as is the case for most working adults striving for citizenship, then you must have lived in America for at least 5 years prior to filing papers. To sustain yourself for those 5 years, you're probably going to need a job. If you're going to be working full-time, you're going to need to find a company willing to sink long-term costs into your employment by sponsoring you...
If you give a mouse a cookie...
See where this is going? :S
Bah, worst case scenario is a worst case scenario. I highly doubt many will encounter such hardship.
Anyway, reminds me of the fact that I'm getting really tired of hearing the argument that immigrants help the economy by taking jobs that many Americans refuse to take (low wage, labor intensive, bad hours, etc...)
I have one word to say to that: taxes. Simple fact is illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. Also people that hire illegal immigrants don't pay into Social Security, Medicare, unemployment benefits. etc. Not to mention a lot of illegal immigrants will try to take advantage of public services, which of course they aren't paying for. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't particularly like the idea of paying for someone else to have help who won't in turn help anyone else.
Only outweighs the initial benefit by A LOT.
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No, I don't think that's an uncommon situation for working adults. Heck, that's what my parents went through 1996-1999 (3 years for the actual process, they came to the US as sponsored employees in 1985). After 9/11, this process only slowed down even more.... I have a family friend who's been slogging through this process for 4 years and counting.
Becoming a US citizen is a hard process, which is why illegal immigration is such a big issue. Hopefully the system is overhauled soon, and replaced with a more efficient and feasible one.
Becoming a US citizen is a hard process, which is why illegal immigration is such a big issue. Hopefully the system is overhauled soon, and replaced with a more efficient and feasible one.
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Tsurayu wrote...
Anyway, reminds me of the fact that I'm getting really tired of hearing the argument that immigrants help the economy by taking jobs that many Americans refuse to take (low wage, labor intensive, bad hours, etc...)I am sick of that argument also.
If Joe Q. Public takes off the stereotyping goggles for just a moment, he'll soon find that there really aren't many jobs that the average tax-paying American isn't willing to do if it's what's available. Growing up, I saw a shitton of young people who couldn't find entry-level jobs anywhere because those positions were all taken by known illegals. No entry-level positions means it's almost impossible to build up work experience, and oh, guess what employers look for? Now, thanks to that, there's a couple generations of normal kids who couldn't find employment even in the crappy jobs, and have now grown into adults who can't find employment.
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peto453 wrote...
I am mexican, and i support this Arizona law, why? this:Unfortunately, a lot of americans (not all americans) a lot of time ago started to hate us cause the Immigration issue, and yes you americans have all your right to complain about us, cause the inability of our stupid and corrupted government, to create jobs, security and other things forces a lot of mexicans go to the US to find "the american dream" a good way of life that our country sadly cant give us.
I must say we have a lot of problems here, corruption, drugs, insecurity and many other things that we should attend to prevent the immigration to your country, but as long as the corrupted governments remains here that wont be solved soon.
Our polititians only watch for themselves and not for the entire country, and in part is our own fault for not ask for results to our polititians.
Finally, about the Arizona law recently aproved a lot of people here and around the world complain about it, personally as mexican i support that law,why? cause at the end of the day its your country as simple as that and you can do anything you want to preserve the security there.
A journalist here wrote: "we'll do the same thing here in this case, cause for example, one day you walk into your house and you find a guy sit in your sofa, and says to you: " i will stay here cause i want", what did you do? simple you call the police, cause this guy is illegally in my house".
We have to create a good country in order to prevent that our people left our country.
No intention to offend anybody, sorry if i offend you, this is just an statement that i want to say, at the end i think we all are friends and in some circumstances we are brothers.
Now lets drink, and remember this september 16 all of you are invited to the big party of our 200 years of independence.
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Tsurayu wrote...
I have one word to say to that: taxes. Simple fact is illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. Also people that hire illegal immigrants don't pay into Social Security, Medicare, unemployment benefits. etc. Not to mention a lot of illegal immigrants will try to take advantage of public services, which of course they aren't paying for. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't particularly like the idea of paying for someone else to have help who won't in turn help anyone else.
Actually I can tell you that this argument is complete and total crap. My great-grandparents entered this country illegally at first and my family has in our possession receipts from the federal government proving that they did indeed pay taxes. These receipts have a big ol' stamp on them that say ILLEGAL in the reddest possible ink.
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but they have just been doing what most agencies already require show a valid ID that shows they are legal residents of the U.S.
it's almost like they are trying to make illegal immigration illegal!!!
it's almost like they are trying to make illegal immigration illegal!!!
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Everyone says that it is just people showing IDs. But I have to ask, what will that accomplish other than removing the only immigrants who are here to work legitimately. I have plenty of friends who live and Mexico and here is the situation. That place is a total hellhole, the drug cartels are uniformed now meaning that they have money. So exactly what is stopping them from obtaining fake papers that your average small town Arizona cop wouldnt know how to read?
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It is not the singling out of people i am debating or the creation of fake papers but if we allow some illegal immigrants in to work and live where is it going to stop.
If a society breaks its own rules what is there to stop others rules from breaking down and becoming "Grey Areas" that allow different interpretations and consequences.
Mexico may not be the greatest place to live but breaking the law and coming into America illegally is by no a solution to that problem.
If a society breaks its own rules what is there to stop others rules from breaking down and becoming "Grey Areas" that allow different interpretations and consequences.
Mexico may not be the greatest place to live but breaking the law and coming into America illegally is by no a solution to that problem.
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It sounds great and all at when you first look at it from the surface, but on closer inspection you realize it's all built upon one huge assumption: that the officers will adhere to "common sense."
Unfortunately, common sense is so broad and so undefined that you get a wide spectrum of responses, which is not what you want when you make a case-specific law. It also doesn't help that the law itself is so vague when it defines what is acceptable for the officers to do.
Now, I'm no expert in law or politics, but even I can tell there's going to be major issues when you take this thing out of theories and into practice. Murphy's Law dicates that the best laid plan, if it can fail, will fail in the worse, most dramatic, and most inoppertune of times.
Conclusion: bad idea.
Unfortunately, common sense is so broad and so undefined that you get a wide spectrum of responses, which is not what you want when you make a case-specific law. It also doesn't help that the law itself is so vague when it defines what is acceptable for the officers to do.
Now, I'm no expert in law or politics, but even I can tell there's going to be major issues when you take this thing out of theories and into practice. Murphy's Law dicates that the best laid plan, if it can fail, will fail in the worse, most dramatic, and most inoppertune of times.
Conclusion: bad idea.
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This is a stupid law. It gives police officers the rights they already had. They have the right to see documentation of everyone. It's just a stupid law that is bound to start racial controversy.
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Its not really a security
more of annoying then anything..
Local people that live in such areas like Arizona (Mexicans and other such races) that has came into America legally, will just be abused by the police.
Ex
Lets say a legal male Mexican has went out for the night with his family and forgot his wallet, and then the cops pull him over. The police will hold him in jail until he is proven that he is legal.
more of annoying then anything..
Local people that live in such areas like Arizona (Mexicans and other such races) that has came into America legally, will just be abused by the police.
Ex
Lets say a legal male Mexican has went out for the night with his family and forgot his wallet, and then the cops pull him over. The police will hold him in jail until he is proven that he is legal.
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Well try to remember your wallet because it ha important things like your I.D., umm something important called money, and various other things you need on a day to day basis. This law really adds nothing new to the current actions carried out by police and other companies. It just puts what they already do into writing.
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Djsem@D2Jsp wrote...
ExLets say a legal male Mexican has went out for the night with his family and forgot his wallet, and then the cops pull him over. The police will hold him in jail until he is proven that he is legal.
Have you forgotten that it's already illegal for legal immigrants to go about outside their homes without the proper identification?
If they get caught breaking the law in that way, they kinda earned the trouble.
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X-07 wrote...
Tsurayu wrote...
I have one word to say to that: taxes. Simple fact is illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. Also people that hire illegal immigrants don't pay into Social Security, Medicare, unemployment benefits. etc. Not to mention a lot of illegal immigrants will try to take advantage of public services, which of course they aren't paying for. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't particularly like the idea of paying for someone else to have help who won't in turn help anyone else.
Actually I can tell you that this argument is complete and total crap. My great-grandparents entered this country illegally at first and my family has in our possession receipts from the federal government proving that they did indeed pay taxes. These receipts have a big ol' stamp on them that say ILLEGAL in the reddest possible ink.
I highly doubt that was a normal circumstance. It's not total crap. Most illegal immigrants are not paying taxes.
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I agree with regulated immigration (to some extent). From what I see there are a lot of immigrants who are soiling the reputation of the others (e.g. gang members and fugitives). The U.S. should be take more precautions about the real dangers instead of just blocking everyone out.
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Tsurayu wrote...
I have one word to say to that: taxes. Simple fact is illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. Also people that hire illegal immigrants don't pay into Social Security, Medicare, unemployment benefits. etc. Not to mention a lot of illegal immigrants will try to take advantage of public services, which of course they aren't paying for. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't particularly like the idea of paying for someone else to have help who won't in turn help anyone else. It depends. If they are employed and paid under the table, then they don't pay any taxes. If they are employed by using a fake SSN, then they are at least paying payroll and medicare taxes. Some also pay income tax, because of employers who withhold it or by using an TIN. Still, illegal immigrants as a whole do not pay their fair share of taxes, though the gap is not as wide as most people probably think. However, it would be incorrect to say that illegal immigrants pay virtually no taxes.
Fiery_penguin_of_doom wrote...
It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. Crack down on companies and they won't hire legal Hispanics as much for fear of getting busted in case one turns out to have a counterfeit. People will scream racism no matter what we do. The politicians wont tackle the problem because they have something to gain. Democrats have votes and Republicans have cheap labor.I think putting pressure on employers is still a much better solution than the AZ law. The stuff that happens right now is a joke. I live in an area with a lot of illegals, and things show up in the news where some company has 10 employees that all are using the same SSN. I have a hard time believing that this couldn't easily be prevented with some basic screening by employers. It shouldn't even be that hard root out counterfeit SSNs in general. However, employers have no incentive to even try or cooperate with the government because there is no penalty when they get caught with 10 employees using the same SSN. They didn't "knowingly" hire the illegals.
I don't think racial discrimination would be particularly bad using this method if a standard procedure was applied and used with everyone. Wouldn't it be fairly simple to require everyone who wanted to work to provide an SSN and a valid government issue photo ID(like a passport, current school IDs are accepted), check with the provider of the ID to make the sure the picture of the original ID provided by the government and the picture on the provided ID appear to be of the same person, cross-reference with the feds to make sure that SSN matches up with that person. This requires that the government keep the photo one submits to get an ID on file(they do with US passports, don't know about other things), but even without something like this, there are certainly improvements that could be made.
Regarding discrimination, if a business fails to execute the procedure correctly with any employee, they get hit with a penalty.
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Kind of Important
A ray of Tsunlight.
624 wrote...
I agree with regulated immigration (to some extent). From what I see there are a lot of immigrants who are soiling the reputation of the others (e.g. gang members and fugitives). The U.S. should be take more precautions about the real dangers instead of just blocking everyone out.We're not.
You want into this country? Follow the procedures, and hot damn! Here you are.
You try to run over here? No, you get caught, you're getting thrown the fuck out.
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Rbz wrote...
LuPonce wrote...
they dont want us here in the usa. they call them job stealers when you think of it i'v never seen a white person doing phyical labor or any kind. they ususally sit thier ass in front of a PC the whole day no wonder many americasn are so fat!im am also sick of all the racism.
There's so much irony I can slurp it through a fucking straw.
QFT
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WhiteLion wrote...
It depends. If they are employed and paid under the table, then they don't pay any taxes. If they are employed by using a fake SSN, then they are at least paying payroll and medicare taxes. Some also pay income tax, because of employers who withhold it or by using an TIN. Still, illegal immigrants as a whole do not pay their fair share of taxes, though the gap is not as wide as most people probably think. However, it would be incorrect to say that illegal immigrants pay virtually no taxes.The tax issue was one of the major reasons I support the FairTax. Those illegals, will pay taxes when they buy anything (since they aren't legal residents they won't get the prebate) Every time they buy lunch, boots, gloves, gas, etc they end up paying taxes and finally help fund the government.
I think putting pressure on employers is still a much better solution than the AZ law. The stuff that happens right now is a joke. I live in an area with a lot of illegals, and things show up in the news where some company has 10 employees that all are using the same SSN. I have a hard time believing that this couldn't easily be prevented with some basic screening by employers. It shouldn't even be that hard root out counterfeit SSNs in general. However, employers have no incentive to even try or cooperate with the government because there is no penalty when they get caught with 10 employees using the same SSN. They didn't "knowingly" hire the illegals.
I don't think racial discrimination would be particularly bad using this method if a standard procedure was applied and used with everyone. Wouldn't it be fairly simple to require everyone who wanted to work to provide an SSN and a valid government issue photo ID(like a passport, current school IDs are accepted), check with the provider of the ID to make the sure the picture of the original ID provided by the government and the picture on the provided ID appear to be of the same person, cross-reference with the feds to make sure that SSN matches up with that person. This requires that the government keep the photo one submits to get an ID on file(they do with US passports, don't know about other things), but even without something like this, there are certainly improvements that could be made.
Regarding discrimination, if a business fails to execute the procedure correctly with any employee, they get hit with a penalty.
I don't think racial discrimination would be particularly bad using this method if a standard procedure was applied and used with everyone. Wouldn't it be fairly simple to require everyone who wanted to work to provide an SSN and a valid government issue photo ID(like a passport, current school IDs are accepted), check with the provider of the ID to make the sure the picture of the original ID provided by the government and the picture on the provided ID appear to be of the same person, cross-reference with the feds to make sure that SSN matches up with that person. This requires that the government keep the photo one submits to get an ID on file(they do with US passports, don't know about other things), but even without something like this, there are certainly improvements that could be made.
Regarding discrimination, if a business fails to execute the procedure correctly with any employee, they get hit with a penalty.
The point I was trying to get across is groups like La Raza and the ACLU will scream racism until their throats are bloody and the rest of the country is deaf. I'm quite fond of my hearing...well whats left of it.
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I lived in Arizona for 4 years of my life and the major defining trait about Arizona i found was its dislike for Mexicans. did i like living in the state defiantly but i didn't have to worry about being hated (Im black FYI) unlike in Texas where i live currently. I think that the law is very much racism and i hope it is repealed or something but i just dont see that happening and i have other things i have to worry about in Texas like them trying to change the history of the US so it doesn't say Slave trade but North Atlantic acquisitions trade.