Holocaust Denial

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One of the most stupid thing to not believe in is the Holocaust. What the fuck are they doing to themselves. I for myself is amazed on how dumb these people that don't believe in the holocaust. It is the most obvious thing the nazis did. I'll give an example of a group. The British National Party. Now it was founded in 1982 so now it is recent.
Spoiler:
Anti-semitism and Holocaust denial

The BNP, its former leaders and present leader, Nick Griffin, have promoted anti-semitism and Holocaust denial or revisionism in the past. In 1996, writing in his own publication, The Rune, Griffin stated that:

I am well aware that orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into soup and lampshades. I have reached the conclusion that the 'extermination' tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria.

The following year, during a Cook Report documentary he stated:

There is no doubt that hundreds, probably thousands of Jews were shot to death in Eastern Europe, because they were rightly or wrongly seen as communists or potential partisan supporters. That was awful. But this nonsense about gas chambers is exposed as a total lie.

In 1988, The Sunday Times revealed that Holocaust News, a publication that claimed the holocaust was an "evil hoax", was being published by the BNP's then deputy leader, Richard Edmonds, on behalf of a BNP front organisation, the Centre for Historical Review, and distributed by members. John Tyndall, the party's leader, said he was not involved in the publication but that it had his full support.

The 2002 Channel 4 documentary Young, Nazi and Proud featured hidden-camera footage of the then BNP youth leader Mark Collett stating his admiration for Adolf Hitler, and stating "I'd never say this on camera, the Jews have been thrown out of every country including England. It's not just persecution. There's no smoke without fire." It also featured footage of visitors to the party's annual 'Red White and Blue' festival, some of whom wore the legend "88" (code for HH, "Heil Hitler"). Collett resigned from the party after the documentary's filming, but rejoined shortly afterwards, with Nick Griffin's approval, on the condition that Collett change his views on the subject.

In 2006, the party's deputy chairman Scott McLean was shown on the TV documentary "Nazi Hate Rock" making Hitler salutes at a white-supremacist cross-burning ceremony where intensely racist songs were sung and jokes made about Auschwitz.

The BNP claims that it has now cast off "the thinly veiled anti-Semitism" and states that the party has Jewish members, and one of its councillors, Pat Richardson (Epping Forest), is herself Jewish.[44] However, for the 2009 European Parliament election, the BNP fielded a candidate who stated that "dentistry and plastic surgery" were positives to come out of the Holocaust, and endorsed Did Six Million Really Die?, a neo-Nazi and Holocaust denial booklet.


Now that is fucked up. Many Holocaust deniers think that the holocaust was a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples. Now to me, this is antisemitism. And a theory that is used to bash on jews.
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Xil Norse God of Sawdust
I can agree with you that it is odd that some people believe so strongly that something with so much proof is fake.. However, there is a conspiricy for just about every horrific disaster out there. I mean, look at 9/11. Granted people believe it- most likely due to it being on tape- but they believe it happened for a different reason then what evidance preasants.
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Sorry. Article was a tl;dr for me.

Anyway, my thoughts: I neither believe nor disbelieve the Holocaust.

Now, before anyone get's ornery and tries to eat my soul or anything, let me say that I come from a Jewish family.

Now, with the Race-Card-Cockblock in play, let's continue.

Personally, I doubt anything that happened in recent and verifiable history that I did not witness with my own eyes, and even then, things I do see are often suspect anyway.

Any event in recorded "History" has, to me at least, equal potential to be a truth and a lie. Sure, it could have happened, and been recorded faithfully. Else, Sure, it could be a lie/propaganda/whatever, and not have happened. I don't know, and without a way to check, I don't think I ever really will.
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Arizth wrote...
Sorry. Article was a tl;dr for me.

Anyway, my thoughts: I neither believe nor disbelieve the Holocaust.

Now, before anyone get's ornery and tries to eat my soul or anything, let me say that I come from a Jewish family.

Now, with the Race-Card-Cockblock in play, let's continue.

Personally, I doubt anything that happened in recent and verifiable history that I did not witness with my own eyes, and even then, things I do see are often suspect anyway.

Any event in recorded "History" has, to me at least, equal potential to be a truth and a lie. Sure, it could have happened, and been recorded faithfully. Else, Sure, it could be a lie/propaganda/whatever, and not have happened. I don't know, and without a way to check, I don't think I ever really will.


I've been to the Holocaust museum in D.C. And that by itself is a huge thing that makes me persuaded about the holocaust.
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I won't deny that. I've read accounts by survivors.

All in all, it does paint a compelling picture.

My problem is...yes, MY problem. Not THE problem. I do realize I have issues, mind...is that I have no way of investigating these facts firsthand. History happened ages ago.

I just happen to be distrustful to the point of paranoia on most things, including history, so unless I can personally verify it, I automatically doubt it.
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I can get that. These people though without a doubt use there own opinion too prove that the holocaust never happened then to actually factually prove it. It's sad.....
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Lol BNP and Iran. Funny people, funny people...

@Arzith:

Your proof should be the fact that there aren't any of those survivors saying it wasn't true. It would be harder to keep everyone's mouth shut than to think up a hoax this big and say it happened.
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Arizth wrote...
I just happen to be distrustful to the point of paranoia on most things, including history, so unless I can personally verify it, I automatically doubt it.


There are pictures of people in ovens. I don't think it was exaggerated, but what I want to know is: why are you paranoid? Sure, its good to be skeptical, but to be distrustful of such blindingly obvious things is just irrational. There are eye-witnesses, though the few there may be, of people who survived the Holocaust, and can verify the horrors that befell jews, gypsies, and gays alike. It seems a bit hard to believe that so much money spent on documentaries, museums, and other pieces of media based on recent history could be false.

Arizth wrote...
All in all, it does paint a compelling picture.


To this I say:

"One murder is a tragedy; One million is a statistic"
-Joseph Stalin
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Arizth wrote...
I won't deny that. I've read accounts by survivors.

All in all, it does paint a compelling picture.

My problem is...yes, MY problem. Not THE problem. I do realize I have issues, mind...is that I have no way of investigating these facts firsthand. History happened ages ago.

I just happen to be distrustful to the point of paranoia on most things, including history, so unless I can personally verify it, I automatically doubt it.


So, supposing you don't live in NYC and didn't see the 9-11 attacks first hand, that isn't real?

The tsunami of 2004 that hit the Indian Ocean isn't real because you didn't witness it firsthand?

Some guy gets shot over here, and it isn't real to you because you're over there instead?

Or are they real to you because they happened during your lifetime? If so, what the hell difference does it make if it happened before or after you were born, if you're not there to witness things for yourself anyway? It's the same thing.
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Well, by the logic that you've never personally witnessed an event, history itself doesn't exist beyond your lifetime and experiences.
Most people accept what they are taught to be true; smart people will question what they are taught, but that means seeking out proof on your own and not just accepting the proof you are given.
There isn't any way to be absolutely certain if anything has happened, even if you witnessed it yourself. We accept things mostly based on probability, even though we don't think of it in those terms.
And in those terms, there is a VAST amount of evidence that the Holocaust happened, and there are people alive who DID personally witness it. So we accept it to be true.
It is not entirely impossible that it was faked, but it's not also entirely impossible that every human on Earth will wake up tomorrow to find a pile of diamonds on their kitchen table.

The important thing to remember is that no sane, rational human being is a holocaust denier. Such a thing is past the level of general human irrationality, and enters the realm of the dangerously insane.

Also, did this topic arise out of the shooting at a U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum by James Von Brunn, professional jackass an holocaust denier?
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Like Dante said, anyone who is a Holocaust denier is messed up in the head. There's a stunning amount of evidence that the Holocaust happened, and if they continue to deny the evidence presented then they clearly are mentally unstable. I've been to Dachau, and that shit's legit.
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Tifaslover wrote...
Arizth wrote...
I won't deny that. I've read accounts by survivors.

All in all, it does paint a compelling picture.

My problem is...yes, MY problem. Not THE problem. I do realize I have issues, mind...is that I have no way of investigating these facts firsthand. History happened ages ago.

I just happen to be distrustful to the point of paranoia on most things, including history, so unless I can personally verify it, I automatically doubt it.


So, supposing you don't live in NYC and didn't see the 9-11 attacks first hand, that isn't real?

The tsunami of 2004 that hit the Indian Ocean isn't real because you didn't witness it firsthand?

Some guy gets shot over here, and it isn't real to you because you're over there instead?

Or are they real to you because they happened during your lifetime? If so, what the hell difference does it make if it happened before or after you were born, if you're not there to witness things for yourself anyway? It's the same thing.


I do live in NYC, actually, and I was within sight when 9/11 occurred.

With my logic, I don't deny that the attack happened, as I saw it happen myself. Rather, I begin to question "Who done it?". Basically, I wonder if it was actually terrorism, or if there's a possibility the conspiracy nuts are correct and it was internal, and a bunch of other, rather silly, shit.

I think you misunderstood something. I'm not denying the events. I'm not saying "There was no Holocaust". I'm saying "I think there probably was a Holocaust, but I won't be 100% sure until I see it for myself."
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Arizth wrote...

I think you misunderstood something. I'm not denying the events. I'm not saying "There was no Holocaust". I'm saying "I think there probably was a Holocaust, but I won't be 100% sure until I see it for myself."

So, basically you believe "arsenic could probably be poisonous, but I won't be 100% sure until I see it for myself"? Same with the earth being round, plague being caused by bacteria, and so on. (Yes, that's a real question, I'm just curious how far you'd go with this stance)

states that the party has Jewish members, and one of its councillors, Pat Richardson (Epping Forest), is herself Jewish

Yeah, the racist's alibi jew, always a good one. That's like the Exalted Cyclops of the KKK and his alibi black friend.

Holocaust deniers have issues, one way or the other. That von Brunn guy is a sad testament to that.
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Must not denying the Holocaust. Despite the exaggeration in the number of victims. In addition, the victims were not Jews only. Holocaust killed millions of victims of the peoples who suffered under German occupation. Nation like the Polish and Russian and other peoples of Eastern Europe. Even the gypsies and homosexuals had a stake in this hell. In addition to members of the opposition of the German Nazi government.
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I'll quote something I wrote here on Fakku some time ago in another topic.

Spoiler:
Hitler came and told Germans that Jews were cause of their suffering from WW1 and global crisis (even if that wasn't true).


Hitler tried to annihilate or enslave whole Czechoslovakia ( divided to Czech Republic and Slovakia since 1993) and Poland, names like Osviecim, Dachau, Terezin, Treblinka (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp for example) are just enough. Poland (especially civilians) was treated by nazis in the worst possible way.


People denying the Holocaust should also check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II#Concentration_camps_and_slave_work
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

AND MOST OF ALL, VISIT SOME OF THOSE PLACES. (Dachau, Osviecim, Terezin)
I've been personally only to Terezin, which wasn't even meant to annihilation and was used "only" as a work and concentration camp from where were the prisoners sent to death to Osviecim, and I can honestly tell you, even 60 years after war, even with all the recultivation and making it a memorial place, the atmosphere there is still somehow forcing you to vomit. Anyone sane can't deny Holocaust after seeing any of those places.


People denying Holocaust should be taken all together and forced to spend one week living like people who were prisoned there and then asked again if they still deny it.
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Tegumi "im always cute"
Holocaust was a lie.

Òˆ Òˆ Òˆ Òˆ Òˆ Òˆ Òˆ
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Lamz0r wrote...
Hitler came and told Germans that Jews were cause of their suffering from WW1 and global crisis (even if that wasn't true).


It is called by historians the 'Jewish Question'. Jews were considered a plauge, a race attempting to eat German alive from the inside. They were suspected of having a worldwide conspiracy, and this was used many times throughout the Nazi period to shift blame [A good example would be Japan's bombing of Perl Harbour, after USA was brought into the war Germans were led to believe that USA entered simply because Jews were sneakily pulling strings in the government rather than Japan being an ally of Germany] But you can't just leave it at that. Germans were raised to think that anyone who wasn't Aryan 'inferior'. In reference to Czechoslovakia and Poland, it's not so much Jews, more the fact that all races were inferior as compared to Germans. It would be hard to refute the holocaust since documents that were not destroyed by the Nazis prove it. What I find interesting is that only around 0.5% of the German population at the time were Jewish.
My sources would be Level 2 NCEA History, Germany 1918-45 [Longman History Project, author Josh Brooman] and several History channel-esque programmes.
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Hibia wrote...
Lamz0r wrote...
Hitler came and told Germans that Jews were cause of their suffering from WW1 and global crisis (even if that wasn't true).


It is called by historians the 'Jewish Question'. Jews were considered a plauge, a race attempting to eat German alive from the inside. They were suspected of having a worldwide conspiracy, and this was used many times throughout the Nazi period to shift blame [A good example would be Japan's bombing of Perl Harbour, after USA was brought into the war Germans were led to believe that USA entered simply because Jews were sneakily pulling strings in the government rather than Japan being an ally of Germany] But you can't just leave it at that. Germans were raised to think that anyone who wasn't Aryan 'inferior'. In reference to Czechoslovakia and Poland, it's not so much Jews, more the fact that all races were inferior as compared to Germans. It would be hard to refute the holocaust since documents that were not destroyed by the Nazis prove it. What I find interesting is that only around 0.5% of the German population at the time were Jewish.
My sources would be Level 2 NCEA History, Germany 1918-45 [Longman History Project, author Josh Brooman] and several History channel-esque programmes.

I know pretty much everything you wrote here, I've just made things really simple for people who don't know much about european history (yes, nazis and earlier parts of WW2 are are mostly about Europe).
Yeah, Germans were raised to believe that they are superior to everyone and their nation is the most glorious and should be leading the world (thus Third Reich).
But I must concur about your Czechoslovakia and Poland part. Slavics and Jews were, in the matter of "race" (can't find better word) the most problematic and first to deal with. Nazis were seriously thinking about enslaving or wiping the whole slavic "race" (god, that word again) - Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Russians and the others. The "Ultimate solution to the Czech question" - which was Heydrich trying to make come alive in the Protektorat Bohmen und Mohren says it all. Not to mention the fact that there was rather high percentage of Jews in Poland compared to other neighbouring nations.
About the percentage of Jews in Germany - you might find it interresting, but as I wrote it in the simple way, Hitler simply brainwashed the masses suffering from the world economical crisis in early 30's. He was a great speaker that's what we can't try to hide, and was able to affect and fanatise most of the German people. Plus he gave them work (---> saved them from the crisis], so they followed him just for this. He started to blame Jews for Versailles, crisis, unemployment and pretty much everything bad happening back there.
My sources would be "GCE examination "A" Levels (GB)" (that's what translator gave me for a word in my mother language - another might be "graduation (US)") from History, about 10 different lectures from more or less renowned professors of history, whole bunch of different documentaries, as well as the fact in my country, as a direct neighbour of Germany and the most humiliated country in WW2 (at least the non-asian part), WW2 and nazi agression are the most discussed historical event (along with the era of comunism).
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Mmm, nothing shockingly new there to me. My history course wasn't limited in any manner, and nor was my reading on the subject. I guess I found it interesting that towards the end, Nazis decided to kill races off and any work supplied by them was just an added bonus. But this is kinda off topic. Holocaust is too concrete to deny. Although, if we want to split this thread to just "Nazis overall" I don't mind.

However, feel free to expand when you have information to give, even people who may have considered themselves disinterested may discover a bit of information that drives them to study the area.
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Some people choose not to believe in the Holocaust because they don't care to (racism mainly)

Either that or they were wrongly informed by others.

Like that story about the teacher telling his students that the Holocaust was a lie.
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