Mathematics: Invention or Discovery
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My father introduced me to this "heated" debate recently, my father being the head of the math department at his college was very passionate about the subject, and I'm curious as to what the Fakku! community has to say about it.
You'll have to forgive me if my opinion seems rather undeveloped as I'm somewhat in a rush.
I personally feel man invented math to suit our needs.
You'll have to forgive me if my opinion seems rather undeveloped as I'm somewhat in a rush.
I personally feel man invented math to suit our needs.
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Man combined a system of logic with numbers. Seems like an invention to me.
What points do the "discovery" proponents raise?
What points do the "discovery" proponents raise?
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mibuchiha
Fakku Elder
I think maths is discovered, not invented. Sure, the very basic concept is defined by humans like numbers and stuff, but those are defined by checking them up with the world, not something mathematicians made up on the go.
When I look at those infinite sums, common equations etc I just can't think of maths as invented.
When I look at those infinite sums, common equations etc I just can't think of maths as invented.
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I think of it as mostly invented, as it is true that the basic logical building block were mostly discovered but since then all the useful (and mostly not useful...) math that has been developed has pretty much been invented to suit some specific need or satisfy someones curiosity.
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That's kinda hard to say. Math was in a sense invented so that we could measure things, obviously there is math in everything that happens, even in nature. Long before any of us existed things still had to happen precisely, like chemical reactions and such. We use math to help describe whats happening and how much.
However we also discover new uses for math, as well as new things with math and even discover new ways of math existing. So maybe the original idea for math was invented, but its used to discover, and other types of math can BE discovered now that we've identified it.
I'm probably more on the discovered side of the fence here.
Maybe that's too down the middle but those are my thoughts :3
However we also discover new uses for math, as well as new things with math and even discover new ways of math existing. So maybe the original idea for math was invented, but its used to discover, and other types of math can BE discovered now that we've identified it.
I'm probably more on the discovered side of the fence here.
Maybe that's too down the middle but those are my thoughts :3
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Meeks pretty much said it all. Math, as in the numeric system and so on is an invention, but we still discover the uses of it.
I also think that at first someone discovered the uses of logical thinking and of counting, and he invented a system to make it easier for himself and for others. I'm not really sure if that would make math an invention or a discovery... I'm confused... I need to think about this one for a while.
I also think that at first someone discovered the uses of logical thinking and of counting, and he invented a system to make it easier for himself and for others. I'm not really sure if that would make math an invention or a discovery... I'm confused... I need to think about this one for a while.
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It sort of depends where you draw the line.
The original number system was a hex-digit system, which of course is an invention as it was man-made. That evolved into numbers which evolved so on. So you could argue all maths was man-made.
But when people 'discovered' that 1+1 = 2 and etc. what would that count as?
Surely it's a discovery, because you can't bend the numbers to fit your rules. You create rules to fit the numbers. So mathematics in the sense that the application and functions of numbers, is technically a discovery through the inter-relations of the invention of numbers.
No, I don't really know what I just said myself, it's 20 to midnight at time of posting.
The original number system was a hex-digit system, which of course is an invention as it was man-made. That evolved into numbers which evolved so on. So you could argue all maths was man-made.
But when people 'discovered' that 1+1 = 2 and etc. what would that count as?
Surely it's a discovery, because you can't bend the numbers to fit your rules. You create rules to fit the numbers. So mathematics in the sense that the application and functions of numbers, is technically a discovery through the inter-relations of the invention of numbers.
No, I don't really know what I just said myself, it's 20 to midnight at time of posting.
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Nashrakh
Little White Butterflies Staff
A mix of both.
Man discovered "Math" in the sense of counting, basic logic and calculus.
Then, man invented the system called "Math" to describe what he has discovered.
That's it basically, in my opinion. Of course, math is such an intertwined field of study that it becomes really hard to differentiate between discovery and invention.
Also, mad props to your old man. Scientific math is just ridiculously hard...
Man discovered "Math" in the sense of counting, basic logic and calculus.
Then, man invented the system called "Math" to describe what he has discovered.
That's it basically, in my opinion. Of course, math is such an intertwined field of study that it becomes really hard to differentiate between discovery and invention.
Also, mad props to your old man. Scientific math is just ridiculously hard...
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In it's purest form, i belive math is the universal language. it's when people start assigning values to otherwise intangable ideas that it gets screwed up. i remember watching something on PBS about quantum physics or string theory or something, and they had an equation that had a value assigned to an idea. i can't remember what exactly, so the only example i can think of is love. love is an idea, it can't have a mathmatical value. if that makes any sense. then again, i never went past algebra in school, so i might be missing the point of higher math completely.
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Nashrakh
Little White Butterflies Staff
earlshaggwell wrote...
then again, i never went past algebra in school, so i might be missing the point of higher math completely.On a very basic and every-day level, solving problems.
Problems are formulated into mathematical problems so they can be solved with mathematical logic, then formulated into a solution to the "real" problem.
At least that's what I was taught.
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As far as we can perceive, math is truth. Regardless of whether one can accept it or not, it is completely logical. In the sense of a universal language, all we have is mathematics. Regardless of what may exist beyond our perception, in the end, all things can be expressed within a mathematical equation. I've spent a long time trying to find some other solution, but in the end, everything turns out the same.
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Man discovered math without numbers.
They knew that 1 person is one, but never had the number one. Just like having ten people and saying that there are ten people with out having an actual number in place.
Logic. They knew there was more or less of something.
Then man invented the rest. We had found the simple addition. Why not make it easier on ourselves? Instead of counting by ones along a line of 200 people, why not make it easy!?
Multiplication!
Break off into groups! There are Ten people per group. There are twenty groups. If we add those ten groups of twenty we get 20, 40, 60, 80, 100, 120, 140, 160, 180, 200.
Lets call it ten times twenty!
And then the process went on and on and on...
They knew that 1 person is one, but never had the number one. Just like having ten people and saying that there are ten people with out having an actual number in place.
Logic. They knew there was more or less of something.
Then man invented the rest. We had found the simple addition. Why not make it easier on ourselves? Instead of counting by ones along a line of 200 people, why not make it easy!?
Multiplication!
Break off into groups! There are Ten people per group. There are twenty groups. If we add those ten groups of twenty we get 20, 40, 60, 80, 100, 120, 140, 160, 180, 200.
Lets call it ten times twenty!
And then the process went on and on and on...
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TheDarkStarAlchemist
Requests Moderator
Rbz wrote...
Man combined a system of logic with numbers. Seems like an invention to me.What points do the "discovery" proponents raise?
This.
Though while in Calculus today, I thought of something: After all of the applicable math was figured out, I think at one point they where like "Let's see all the cool shit we can do with these numbers"
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Nothing is ever truly discovered, it is only recognized. That which one discovers is only a realization of something that already exists.
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Complex and confusing, but this can be said (23 x 2) + (23 x 2) = 23 x 2.
The fact of human nature and still learning.
The fact of human nature and still learning.
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loosehead99 wrote...
Complex and confusing, but this can be said (23 x 2) + (23 x 2) = 23 x 2.The fact of human nature and still learning.
Um, what? (23 x 2) + (23 x 2) =/= 23 x 2. It does, however equal 92, which is 23 x 4.
I personally agree that all things are discovered not invented. Regardless of the name or expression of a particular value or term, it equals the same thing, showing that representation of math still just conveys that which exists due to natural laws.
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ryuuhagoku wrote...
loosehead99 wrote...
Complex and confusing, but this can be said (23 x 2) + (23 x 2) = 23 x 2.The fact of human nature and still learning.
Um, what? (23 x 2) + (23 x 2) =/= 23 x 2. It does, however equal 92, which is 23 x 4.
I personally agree that all things are discovered not invented. Regardless of the name or expression of a particular value or term, it equals the same thing, showing that representation of math still just conveys that which exists due to natural laws.
Not in the science/math of human chromosomes.
2 parents each with 46 chromosomes produce a child with only 46 chromosomes.
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This reminds me of Plato's discussion of Heraclitean flux. To me, math is an invention, down to something that seems basic and obvious as arithmetic. Take two pieces of chalk that are nearly identical except one has a slight nub. Place one on a table and we would constitute it as "one." If both pieces of chalk are on the table, there are "two." One piece of chalk is slightly less than the other, we still constitute each item as one. Math doesn't have a form for measurement. It doesn't tell you that in order to truly measure the oneness of objects, you must grind them down - in this case, for chalk. If you grind both down into fine, fine powder, can you then measure, piece for piece, the oneness of one or the oneness of another? Math doesn't make these distinctions.