national and other pride and/or identification

i dont seem to exactly understand the notion why people seem to identify themselves with the achievements of their nation with which they have basically nothing more in common than having the luck (or misfortune) of being born on soil that is encompassed by its (somewhat arbitrary) boundaries.

i often hear sentences like "we landed on the moon" or "we got 36 gold medals"...
well, you didnt for a fact, its not a national achievement, and even if it were, whats your part in it?
its mostly individual or small group achievement so how is there a reason to take pride from that?

same thing goes btw for the different sports teams. fans of a certain sports team seem to feel down when "their" team lost its as if they had lost. if "their" team won however, its as if they had won, as if they had personally played the field and kicked their opponents ass, and that is then often the way in which they act towards fans in the opposing team...as if they "owned" them...well, they didnt.

well, this list could be added by several more points...

I payed the taxes that help those programs get off the ground?

I gotta be honest, I really don't know why. I clearly believe you're asking a question without a right answer.

Maybe its because those events are of the few things that manage to join an entire country together? Maybe its because those people are representing the land you have come to know and love through years of pain and happiness? Seriously, I don't know.

As for sports team, you may want to read this.

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/getArticle.cfm?id=1986

you understand fan support does help a team right? The Olympic athletes had to train somehow and were supported some way... The space program wasn't paid for by hopes and dreams... People have a right to feel they helped someone achieve something no matter how small the contribution. If you don't understand national pride then I pity you sir.

I'm with Azuran. I don't understand it at all, but it makes sense, in a sort of unspoken way. If you live in a state, why not root for the football or baseball team from that state? It's sort of a comradery that exists, perhaps, for the sake of existing. Without those sorts of bonds, people feel a little empty inside. If you have no national pride, then that means that you don't feel that any place you live is special. People develop national pride not just because they were born in a certain place, but because they like that place. It may even be so simple as them having memories of that place, and thus they value it in some way.

I know a lot about state bashing, being a person who bashes the state he lives in, and when people say that they state they live in sucks, they almost always add something positive to it. For instance, Tennessee sucks ass and is a bad place to live, but there are some good things about, like the warm weather and the fact that the state isn't completely racist and intolerable. Now, things are different if a person's only lived in a state for a year or two, but if someone's been in a place for over a decade, they do develop some sort of pride. And that makes sense. In a "I-don't-really-understand-it-at-all" sort of way.

of course i m asking a question without a right answer...these kinda questions are boring.

alright, if you payed taxes in 1969 was it? then you are entitled to have participated with probably a couple of hundred, maybe even thousand dollars to this project, but this is technically all you are entitled to.

either way, i dont know either.
join a country together...whats the deal with countries anyway. lets say you were to live in texas, and lets further say that a huge catastrophe or whatever would happen down in mexico, only a couple of kilometers down the road, which, fortunately enough doesnt affect you. for what reason should you be compelled to feel a stronger empathic bond towards people that live in lets say seattle, or even further, alaska, even though they are thousands of kilometers away as opposed to people in your vicinity that happen to live under a different flag.

to your article
yes, we had something similar in arts class.
it basically concluded with the human need for identification with a larger group. nowadays (in lack of the tribal society) its either god (although that is -hopefully- in demise) and nationality.
i myself would consider me to be an extreme individualist, insofar that i somewhat pity that need, so this might be why i dont understand it...
another reason why i dont understand it might be that i grew up in two completely different societies and dont feel like i belong to one over the other.


@blind assassin
yes, but after all we are geneticallly coded to care for our family, which i can understand a bit better, since its biological.

@war
yes, it might help. and of course they have the right to do so, its still somwhat delusional.
and no i dont understand national pride and in fact pity it. isnt that awesome, we both pity each other for the same reason even.

@shaggyjebus
the only thing i feel is special about living in switzerland is that the jobs pay more than almost everywhere else, the taxes are low, crime is almost inexistant and the overall quality of living is awesome.
i like living here, i would probably like it here better than anywhere else, but there is no special sort of bond to the people that live here in general...
i mean, friends and family excluded of course, but then again, they are friends and family.

you don't have to understand it, you're not really relevant to anyone/anything important to me besides this site.

Why question it though, you won't find a concrete answer and it's not like any of us will convince you to change your opinion on the matter. Just seems judgmental for no reason. What I pity is your lack of understanding in the matter, you simply pity the fact that I do feel that pride which you cant understand. Seems simple when you break it down.

Being that I have some family ties to the IRA, I have a cultural reason to dislike you, dispite having never met you.

But on the subject at large...
I think it's pretty much been covered already, but it mostly comes down to a human desire to belong and be a part of something, wether it's a sports team, you country, your heratige, etc.
Even though several of those things people take pride in are basicly accedents, and they didn't DO anything, really, to be a part of them, it gives a person a sense of belonging to that "tribe," so to speak. Some of them also give a person a sense of identity and a means to help define themselves. People get a sense of knowing who they are through these things. And they can also easily become part of a larger group based on their personal definition.
Most people simply don't like feeling alone.

At first I was a little taken aback by this statement, but when I think about it, I feel the same exact way. I can honestly understand why some people can feel a little down if their team won or lost something, but what I pity is how people, every week, on every game, can get so thrilled up over a game they can either result in absolute glee or rage. It seems absolutely foolish to a bystander to gamble your happiness on such an event.

I generally only hold this option for sports though, sports are a game and in my opinion should only be felt by the people playing, but a nation involves the people and thus should impact them.

...and as for school pride and what-not, I understand it and agree you should have it, but I can't seem to get myself involved. Probably because only people who have interactions with people who effect the schools accomplishments could feel that way.

For the Sports thing....

Warning: The following advice is NOT from a professional -_-


It's called "Support". Also, the reason why people feel sad or happy because "their" country lost or won is because you "support" them.

I'm not being clear? Here's the lowdown. Feeling happy because the team won is because you put your "pride" into them.... You are proud because you have people that can at least match with others. When they win, you feel proud because the people from your country kicked other countries butt.

@waar

why question it? is that really a question? if there is something to question, its an imperative to question it.
either way, i pity that you take pride in something you did not do. i generally take only pride in my own accomplishments, and to a degree can thus understand why parents take pride in their kids (after all, they are their "accomplishments", so to speak), but the farther your involvement with whaetever thing or cause, the less reason to take pride for it.

You watch and support stuff for enjoyment. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sports would be boring if you don't support and follow a team. If you're casual sports fan that doesn't follow a team, you obviously can't understand the feelings avid sports fans have towards their teams. Its really difficult to explain it words.

My sports team are a big part of my life. I grew up watching them so I want to see them succeed. When they lose, I feel angry and disappointed because I know they can do a lot better. (unless you're talking about the Knicks). Why do I succumb myself to that type of treatment? Because it's entertaining.

Same goes for every type of enjoyment. You lose in a video game, you become angry and frustrated. You draw a picture that comes up wrong, you grab that paper and rip it in half.

again, I feel as if my support is a form of involvement which you can't seem to grasp; have you ever played any sports where people spurred you on with their admiration and support? You would understand if you have had people in your life who feel that your success is their success, much like the parents you mentioned. You simply don't view pride or support as a valuable commodity; which is sad. My "why question" statement was simply referring to why you asked the question, it seems you don't care for the answers and are trying to convince people that their support for a nation or team as being foolhardy. If you can't understand it but don't want the answer don't ask the question.

@waar
it is a form of involvement, but definitly not a crucial, essential or even defining one. which is imo what it takes to take pride in it.

there are this kinda people, as you pointed out correctly, my parents, but i also said that their involvement with their son is not as fleeting as rooting for a team in front of your television. or maybe even in the stadium.

pride is a commodity...wait what? well, maybe we have different definitions on what pride is, which would explain why we have so different standards on how to acquire it.


no, not as much that it is foolish, rather that its cheap. it generates pride without effort.
and i somewhat knew the answer already, that much is true, i actually asked the question to start a discussion.

I would say the Spanish are probably one of the only cultures WASP's didn't shit on. The worst thing you did was possibly defend yourself against the Spanish Armada.



meh, never did I once say it was crucial to a team but national pride is somewhat required, morale is very important and pride is directly linked to a Nations morale. I believe America can be somewhat defined by their national pride, not entirely but their pride seems to be somewhat compounded by the opinion America holds in the opinions of the rest of the world. It just seems like many Americans need to scream out their pride over the voices of others possibly as somewhat of a defense mechanism these days.

You're right, your parents are far more involved than a fan would be watching a game on television, but why is his involvement not relevant in your eyes? It sounds like you understand the concept you simply dont prescribe to it.

I would say any nation or team would view their fans and fan support as a resource. Something they need to cultivate. So yes I would say support/pride in a team or nation is a valued commodity (one that cannot be traded or even quantified).

Some people values things differently, it's the simple answer to your original question. You do understand it you just don't feel it yourself; I take my original pity statements back. I would however suggest you look at it with an open mind; it's not detrimental to anything unless taken too far; like most things.

yes, i know. americas patriotism is borderline nationalism.

to me its not relevant because its an inactive or passive role. as i said before, i take only pride in my own (which can be genetically expanded) actions, and somewhat passively watching a game, or even actively watching a game and rooting for a team does not qualify...again, in my opinion.

well of course they would do that, after all its their fanbase that keeps them economically going. think of the advertisement contracts they receive because the companies see it as a way to get to the fans. in a rather direct way, since being part of a group means acting similarly, this is even quite efficient.

in a similar way, as a state, its awesome to have your people be proud about it, it diminishes dissidents, even the change for dissididents, since the patriotic community will automatically target them themselves. national pride, as every strong emotion, blinds the people of more threatening matters...

yes, that was my thought too. and yes, i might have worded that incorrectly...what i dont understand is why other people seem wanting to feel it (for as i said before, it seems to me some kind of delusion)

Northern Ireland might as well be a part of England anyway. And it sortof is. But your right, most people of the world probably hate you culturaly. If I were you, that would only give me more reason to be proud, because it's basically like having several hundred million if not seveal billion haters, and yet noone is really doing shit about it. Except the IRA. But that's another subject entirely.

bleh, most of that Northern Ireland bull shit is done these days, the real hate is spreading throughout the middle east.