On Vegetarianism

So...I usually refuse to...talk about this subject because it's almost inevitable that I'll come off as arrogant and pretentious regardless of how I word it, as it's the stigma with those of my position.

I'm a vegetarian. I think I should make that clear before I continue.

And while I consider myself a 'moral vegetarian'(as in I don't eat meat for moral reasons, not for my health) I wouldn't consider myself necessarily 'morally superior' to those who do eat meat. I dislike other vegans who make videos and brag about how great they are for not eating meat, they piss me off and make vegetarianism so unappealing to so many people.

If I may, however...I'd like to attempt to convince my fellow Fakkuers to perhaps...cut down on their meat intake. Take it or leave it, so long as you read this and consider it I'm satisfied.

First, one of the reasons I'm sometimes given for not becoming a vegan is...meat tastes good. While I can understand that some meat products can be good, and indeed some vegans can't keep their dietary habits because of this fact, I'd like to counter that vegetarian products can also taste good. ave you ever had a strawberry banana smoothie? Delicious. Soy milk? While the concept seems like it would taste bad, I recommend just giving it a shot. It's actually, in my opinion, stronger than cow milk, certainly more nutritious, and it tastes...pretty damned good.

When most people think of Soy product and consider it to taste bad, I don't think it's the 'soy' that tastes bad, I think it's the 'whey' that tastes bad. And I agree. Whey tends to add a texture to food and drink so that it almost feels like you're eating or drinking sandpaper. I recommend checking out the products and seeing how much whey is in it before judging all soy products as to taste the same way.

A good start is Silk Soy Milk, I personally love chocolate almond Silk milk.

Salads can also be good, especially when you choose your dressing to suit your tastes. I recommend experimenting with all the different kinds of dressing(except bleu cheese and ranch, they use dairy products). I'm personally a fan of Italian.

There are a lot of things a vegan can eat that taste pretty decent, it just takes a bit of effort to look for it(and some research to be sure it's not animal product).

Another reason sometimes given for eating meat is, "I give these animals the right to eat me if I'm ever in a situation where that may happen, so I don't see that I'm doing anything wrong."

To be honest...you kind of don't. I mean, I don't see anyone in a forest being approached by a bear and going, "Oh well I guess it's my turn." laying down and waiting to be feasted on. It just doesn't seem like a realistic picture to e. Plus there's the fact tat the animals regularly eaten...aren't...likely to ever eat you. Cows don't eat people, pigs don't eat people, sheep don't eat people these aren't things that you're going to be ever threatened by, yet you consume them regularly. That argument to me, holds no weight.

Another argument I tend to hear is sort of 'out of sight out of mind' so long as people aren't AWARE of all the bad things that happen to meat product, they can't see themselves doing wrong. To me this isn't a valid excuse either, and the reason is that we don't avoid knowledge for the sake of feeling better about ourselves, and when we do, I see that not as something everyone's free to do without repercussion. It's unethical to plug your ears and close your eyes and say, "La la la I can't hear you." when someone brings up facts counter to what you would LIKE the world to be like.

The farming techniques of animals are god awful, with pigs being stood on and clipped apart, still conscious as they're boiled alive, put into small fences where they're pumped full of drugs, and that's just pigs. Cows have their babies taken from them and chopped apart to make veal, they're also put into confined spaces where their milk is sucked out of them daily. And to me it's not a far stretch to see the horrors of that by replacing the cows with human females.

At the very least if you're still unconvinced that these are valid reasons to stop eating meat, encourage free range alternatives where animals are allowed to live productive and social lives before they're manufactured.

This brings me to my last point I'll be addressing as to why people don't stop eating meat. This has to do with the people who aren't convinced that animals 'feel pain', or that they're not sufficiently intelligent enough for us to consider them, morally.

A user on youtube who addressed this named "antybu86" said that we have to first contemplate what we put value on before we say that animals are worth consideration. He said that we're special as humans and we place value on our abilities to perform calculus, think philosophical thoughts, and write poetry.

Well, you know what else I personally value? Not having my limbs chopped off while I'm still alive. I also value not having my genitals taken from me or rendered unusable via knives and surgery without anesthetics. And you know what I value more than being able to think philosophical thoughts? And I say this as a student of philosophy who is aspiring for a PhD in the subject: Not being confined into small spaces pumped full of bulk enhancing drugs and being killed at a FRACTION of my natural life span.

Jeremy Bentham, 2 centuries ago said the following: "The question is not can they reason, nor can they talk, but can they suffer?"

It's been said to me that animals who aren't self aware don't feel pain. But how do we tell that animals are self aware? There's the 'mirror test' that not all animals pass, but that's insufficient. Just because an animal can't recognize themselves in a mirror doesn't mean that they don't feel pain, and it certainly doesn't mean they can't feel other social emotions. Cows and pigs and chickens especially form social groups and hierarchies. They have complex emotions, and even engage in teleological behavior. For more on this see "The Pig Who Sang To the Moon" By Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson.

Even if they couldn't do any of this, even if they couldn't have complex emotions or form social groups or whatever, it doesn't change the fact that when chickens have their beaks cut off, when cows have their ears cut off, when pigs have their limbs chopped off without any anesthetics or consideration for how they feel? They...suffer. Immensely. Just as much as you or I would in that situation.

For further reading on everything I've touched on here, see Peter Singer's book "Animal Liberation" the updated copy.

Thank you for listening.

I have never once heard somebody use this argument. That aside, humans have put themselves at the tops of their food chains. Being at the top, we're not naturally eaten by the animals in our surroundings. Also, I realize this is nitpicky, but you used sheep and cows in your example when they are herbivores.



These aren't even some of the worst parts of the industry. What happened to just walking up to cows and slitting their throats when they're standing around? Where's the little gun that destroys a pig's brain by hitting it hard enough with a metal spike? How come you didn't mention the former practice of not letting calves move so their muscles would never develop so that the veal obtained from them would be tender?

I can get past all of this by keeping in mind that these animals were conceived for this to happen so that they could be consumed. Sure, it might be kinda messed up to accept that these sorts of things are happening to living beings, but the sole reason that they have life is for it to happen to them.


All that aside, I will say that being a vegetarian feels pretty good. I tried it once for a while and after I got used to not eating meat it was pretty nice. After a couple weeks I was feeling physically better. My formerly erratic sleep schedule seemed to have righted itself and I wasn't feeling tired all day long anymore. The only bad thing that came from it is that I can no longer stomach very greasy food.

I realize they're herbivores, that's why I find the argument unconvincing. How can you extend the right for them to eat you if they don't and wouldn't even if given the opportunity?



I don't think I'm required to give ALL the different ways animals are tortured to death in order to get a point across...but thanks anyway.



I...find that kind of callous, don't you? I mean, look at Toddlers in Tiaras.

Not only is that show not even a fraction of the horror that animals go through, but these girls are birthed and dressed up before they're cognitively able to reject anything to be pretty and idealized. Breeding something for a specific purpose in general is...an immoral thing. It's selfish, it's callous, and in the case of animals, violently cruel.

I don't see how it follows that, "The pigs were bred to be slaughtered" makes...the slaughtering...ok. Could you...map that out for me?

It's incredibly callous, that I can accept. To put it in a way that is quite possibly more callous it's using something for its intended purpose.

I understand the point that you are making, or so I think, and am truely moved by this quote here, which I was unaware of until now.

From your quite extensive exposé, I make out that the reason for your vegeterianism is the treatment of said animals to become our food, as you've clearly showed us.

I agree with you on the fact that animals should be treated in a better way, because they are living beings as well.

But in that respect, I will not stop eating meat, for the simple reason that it is a choice evolution has given me, by placing me on top of the food chain and giving me my self conscience. I like meat, just as you've described some people do, and I also enjoy vegan products, SOy milk is like a nice treat for me. But it is more of a choice, one that tells me "the evolution has given me control over what I eat. It does not give me the right to disrespect the animals that serve as my dinner, and just like in ages past hunters gave grace to the animal they had killed for their meat, we should be respectful to the animals we eat. But it does give me the right to eat what me and my tribe can catch, if it does not disbalance the natural order."

But I agree nonetheless with the treatment of animals part. Sincerely. Thanks for the interesting discussion.

But...it's not the OBJECTIVE purpose for pig's existence to be eaten by us. That's just OUR purpose for breeding them. And the fact that it's OUR purpose doesn't make it...good, or even necessarily acceptable.

You seem to be saying, "We're making them to be eaten, so it's ok to slaughter them."

That...doesn't...make...sense.

Essentially that is what I am saying, though I wish I had a better way to say it. I'm not surprised that you say it doesn't make sense to you- it doesn't to me either- but it's something that I've accepted.

I think this has wandered a little too far away from what you intended this thread to be...

This topic reminds me of a manga called silver spoon that goes in depth about the morality of killing animals for food. I agree with one of the character quotes "The only thing these animals did wrong was be born a farm animal". Life is random and oftentimes cruel, some people are rich while others are dirt poor. Its all about the luck of the draw. In any case, I love meat and will never stop eating it. Hell, if carnivores are allowed to enjoy their meat, then I should be able to as well.

I don't have a problem with eating meat since animals do that all the time to each other, but i do think they should be treated humanly up until then, and when they are killed it should be quick and painless.

It has been scientifically proven that even plants have electrochemical responses to damage done to their leaves, and even to the leaves of neighboring plants. Just because a plant doesn't scream, when you pluck off its leaves, doesn't mean they are incapable of feeling pain.

If the objection is that the animals we eat are killed in immoral ways, and raised in unsanitary conditions, then you may have a point. But I would answer that with the statement that those conditions are far better now than two centuries ago, in the time of Jeremy Bentham. If it could be proven, to your satisfaction, that plants feel pain just as much as animals, would that change your view on the subject?

A sheep doesn't feel guilt at eating the grass, and the lion doesn't feel pity for the gazelle it just caught. Humans are omnivorous, and we have developed the capacity to choose the the kinds of food we like to eat. Because we are at the top of the food chain, we have the luxury to be able to choose what we wish to eat, without the fear of repercussions.

The truth is, that morality has nothing to do with the kinds of food we eat, or the creatures we kill to provide it. Was the world any more moral when we hunted for food with arrow and spear, and dug wild roots from the earth? We have become too soft and pampered in this era of plenty, that we take time to sympathize with the things we eat, and call ourselves moral. In reality, living creatures will do almost anything to survive - especially during times of privation. The most moral man will see his high ideals very differently when faced with starvation.

I have nothing but respect for those who choose to live a vegetarian lifestyle, whatever their reasons, but to say it is on moral grounds is going too far. It as much as says that those who do not share your viewpoint are immoral, and that is simply a matter of your opinion and perception. Simply said, we must all eat to survive. As to what we choose to eat, that is not for others to dictate, except maybe if it involves cannibalism, but that is not a subject I feel inclined to write about.

Actually it does. They don't have neurons. The 'screams' are nothing more than chemicals reacting to stimuli. Nothing else.



Sure, but you'll probably never manage that. I've read the articles you're probably thinking about, and there's no peer reviewed science behind it...just...wild speculation and weak analogies that even the scientists IN the articles mock as being as silly as astrology.



Umm...without the fear of repercussions? So because we've evolved to be capable of digesting meat and plants...then...that makes torturing animals to death and boiling them alive ok? Yeah...I'm calling nonsense. ;)

Yeah, humans have developed the capacity to choose what we eat. You know what else we've developed? Empathy. You know what else we've developed? The capacity to view the consequences for our actions, or recognize virtues that we wish to emulate. We have evolved the mental capacity to be extremely moral beings, but I don't see you talking about that.

Why is it that the "it's natural" argument works in favor of eating meat but it doesn't work in favor of our morality?



Ok, the truth is that's completely incorrect. If we worry about suffering, or the infliction of suffering at all, in the morality of any action, then it applies to animals too.



Actually yeah, at least as far as animals went, because tradition stated we had to use every part of the animal, try and kill it quickly, and treat its remains with respect. You certainly see very little, if any of such respect nowadays. And besides, back then we didn't put animals in tiny cages and chop them into pieces while they were still alive, and steal their babies from them to make veal. Yeah, we're MUCH worse today.



Well, that's because sympathizing with the suffering of others is a moral thing to do. You can call it 'soft and pampered' that people like me want to respect animals more, but to be honest you just sound petulant. Like, you don't feel bad, so when you see that I do it makes you uncomfortable, so your retort is to insult the 'feelings' I have so you can make yourself feel better for not having them.



Yeah, but we're smart living creatures that have options. Meat isn't required for survival, so that's irrelevant.



Excuse me while I yawn. This is equivalent to the christian argument that when I face my death I'll inevitably convert. So my response is the same: You don't know that. You're arguing from a position of ignorance, and thusly I get to point and laugh at your attempt at prediction and gnosis.



So you respect vegans, unless they're ethical vegans, because saying it's moral is silly, in your opinion, and presumptuous. Well, let me ask you: Who are you to decide what we're allowed to ethically concern ourselves with? Why do YOU get to tell us that we don't get to be moral vegetarians? Why do YOU get to tell us WE'RE the ones being silly? Why do you get to say you have the objective truth that "The fact of the matter is morality has nothing to do with the food we eat" yet when we say, "We disagree" you get to roll your eyes and say, "Well that's just your opinion." IF it's 'just my opinion' that morality can be addressed in what we eat, then it's ONLY your opinion that it shouldn't be. And, from how I'm logically considering where you're coming from...it's an incoherent one.

I guarantee when it comes to the suffering of your fellow human beings you're a lot less callous. You have your own reasons for deciding the suffering of animals don't matter, but don't tell me that the fact of the matter is that they in fact don't, and that I'm just being silly.



I don't think you're immoral for eating meat, because clearly you do so out of ignorance for what goes on in farming industries, as well as completely missing any idea that there MIGHT be a moral problem involved. You don't see it, I do. That doesn't make you immoral.



And eating meat is completely unnecessary, so what's your point?



Yeah, I figure not, because it's a logical contradiction for you.

Please. Tell me. What's immoral about throwing a grown man into a cauldron and boiling them alive for consumption that isn't immoral about throwing a pig into a vat and doing the same thing?

I first want to say that living beings dont really need to eat to survive. I am not sure you heard of this but there are humans who are able to become breatharians, individuals who have the ability to live without food or water. Yes it is possible, I training myself to be one and it is quite difficult for me, and yes there have been reports of deaths of those who tried to become one without really knowing how to do it properly. If you don't believe me check out http://electro-denizen.hubpages.com/hub/living-without-food-and-water-Breatharianism-is-it-possible and/or http://www.klosi.org/news/klosi_news_science/359.html

Anyways back to the subject at hand. I am currently a vegetarian. I tried to be a vegetarian multiple times in the past but didn't permanently become until 2 years ago. At first I become a veg because of the things humans do to get the meat. But now I doing it because of the health benefits, like losing some weight. I lost over 50 pounds since become a veg and feel a lot healthier. I trying to become a breatharian for the same reason, health benefits if you do it right. Heres a little pyramid to give you a clue of how much healthier each group of individuals are when compare to each other.@ BigLundi if you so concern about respecting other living beings by not eating them then how about becoming a waterian or a breatharian XD



[size=10]Breatharians[/h]
[size=12]Waterians[/h]
[size=12] Fruitarians [/h]
Vegans
Vegetarians
Meat Eaters

I hate debating vegetarism so i'll make it short ; i don't give a fuck , it's good , i eat it .

You can go ahead and enjoy your meat if you want. But you have to understand that the argument, "Eating meat is natural" holds no weight. Just because something is natural doesn't necessarily make it 'morally good'. Besides, it's wholly more natural that humans have developed cognitive capacities to weigh consequences of our actions and empathize with other living things. and it's wholly UNnatural how farming animals is generally done. So...if we're going to go with whatever's natural here...



Ok, you clearly haven't done enough research. You can't live on breathing alone. You can't. There's no peer reviewed science behind it. It's a bunch of hooey. Anyone who literally attempts it will either give in and eat something or die trying. Those are your options. Just trust me on this. Don't try it. You'll either die or just starve for a long time until you finally eat something. People..DO need to eat.



Well, plants don't suffer...so I could give a shit about eating them. For one. For two, I consider 'fruitarians' the same as vegans and vegetarians. It's all the same to me. And thirdly, 'waterians' and 'breatharians' either don't exist, or aren't healthy and are slowly dieing. 'Waterians' can live a little bit longer, but they'll die without food all the same.

Well you see being a vegetarian is fucking retarded. The only vegetarians i accept are ones that are groomed from a cultural upbringing of vegetarianism because of their parents or legitimate health purposes like in India where meat is dodgy as fuck.

It doesn't make you any healthier, we're omnivores not herbivorous. The only way it would be considered more healthy than a diet containing meat is if you don't exercise to burn the cholesterol and in that case fuck you, you're not really actually conscientious of your health and well-being if you don't exercise and you're just being a hipster.

Secondly, how is killing an animal for meat even morally wrong? Humans are apex predators and have been for hundreds of thousands of years. You only need to justify something if it is wrong/bad. No one questions why monkeys eat bananas, why frogs eat flies, or why cats eat mice. So why start questioning why humans eat meat? We've been doing it forever, the basic human animal diet includes meat. There's nothing to justify.

If you're talking about the cruelty that might occur during the process than that's another separate issue. Personally my country New Zealand is regulated so that those types of practices don't occur.

Same thing here in canada, the animals live happy until they get killed and they don't suffer when they die . I understand that some vegeterians are "boycotting" meat because animals suffers but it's completly stupid , it won't ever change anything , there will always be meat eaters . You should fight to change the way animals are treated not the way you eat ...

you have completely missed biglundi's point. he has nothing against killing animals but the cruel way they are raised and killed that he finds wrong.

This was reported to be moved to food and cooking. I'm going to leave it here because it turned into an actual debate about vegetarianism but the first post looked more like tips on how to be a vegetarian(the first half did) which does not belong in SD. Advice threads don't really belong in SD, try not to mix that up again.

To quote The Dude: "Yeah...well...that's just like...your opinion man."



Well...you're wrong. Look up "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell, demonstrating that vegetarian dietary habits are in fact healthier than high and low meat diets by a significant margin. Campbell, by the by, is a doctor of nutrition and biology at Cornell University. The study itself was published jointly by Cornell and Oxford. It's not without criticism, but the support for it overwhelms the critiques. There's also significant evidence that, in America, people tend to eat high meat diets, and high meat diets are assuredly less healthy than a vegetarian diet.



Ok, what you're doing here is saying, "It's natural, therefore it's ok." You're right that we don't question many animals when they kill other animals, even eat animals of their own kind, to quote Shelley Kagan, professional philosopher and ethicist - "It's true that we don't judge a lion for eating another pride's cubs, or monkeys and chimps for going to war over land, but if you don't see something a little more special about humans, in that we're actually capable of empathy, as well as complex philosophical and moral questioning over the consequences of our actions, then I don't know what to tell you."

Also, in saying: "It's natural, therefore it's ok" You're committing what David Hume referred to as the "Naturalistic Fallacy" or otherwise known as "The Is/ought gap." While I don't personally necessarily accept Hume's formulation of the fallacy, it's still pretty legitimate to say that simply because something is the case, doesn't mean it ought be that way.



That's...exactly what I'm talking about. The vast majority of meat produced in the world and made availiable to the american people are a direct result of animal farming that isn't 'free range farming'. The Journal of Law and Contemporary Problems in Winter of 2007 stated that 99% of the livestock used for farming in the United States includes that animals never go outdoors. This is a prevalent problem. The strategy of shoving pigs into cages where they're pumped full of bulk enhancing drugs and then have their limbs chopped off while they're still alive without anesthetics, and then boiled in a vat...again while they're still conscious, is not an uncommon practice. This is animal farming. Progress has been made recently in banning some practices in some areas...but there's a long way to go.



http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/pork/gestationcrates.html



http://www.farmsanctuary.org/mediacenter/beef_report.html



And this is just after a most cursory of google searches.