Passions > Reason
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David Hume wrote, "Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them."
Do we rationalize things only because it serves some emotion? It seems to be the case, doesn't it?
Stealing isn't illegal because it makes logical sense for it to be illegal. It is because people don't want their shit stolen. People can come up with great arguments for why people shouldn't steal, but in the end, it boils down to that one thing, right? "I don't want stealing to be legal because then, people can steal my stuff, and there's nothing I can do about it."
That's a very simple example, but it's true of just about every rule that is generally accepted by society. Murder, public nudity, selling cocaine - "I don't want to be killed"; "I don't want to see some dude's wang"; "I don't want my kid snorting coke."
The rules not accepted by certain members of society reflect this as well. Potheads hate that weed is illegal because it means that they may be thrown in jail or heavily fined. People who download music say that it's all free speech, but really, don't they just want free stuff?
Doesn't everybody rationalize things so that they live a better life? If I want to have sex with a ton of different women, aren't I going to come up with some argument for why marriage is stupid? If I like driving my SUV, I'm going to try to use logic to explain why it's okay, right?
How can we believe that logic and reason matter at all, if we are only going to use them to justify what we feel?
Do we rationalize things only because it serves some emotion? It seems to be the case, doesn't it?
Stealing isn't illegal because it makes logical sense for it to be illegal. It is because people don't want their shit stolen. People can come up with great arguments for why people shouldn't steal, but in the end, it boils down to that one thing, right? "I don't want stealing to be legal because then, people can steal my stuff, and there's nothing I can do about it."
That's a very simple example, but it's true of just about every rule that is generally accepted by society. Murder, public nudity, selling cocaine - "I don't want to be killed"; "I don't want to see some dude's wang"; "I don't want my kid snorting coke."
The rules not accepted by certain members of society reflect this as well. Potheads hate that weed is illegal because it means that they may be thrown in jail or heavily fined. People who download music say that it's all free speech, but really, don't they just want free stuff?
Doesn't everybody rationalize things so that they live a better life? If I want to have sex with a ton of different women, aren't I going to come up with some argument for why marriage is stupid? If I like driving my SUV, I'm going to try to use logic to explain why it's okay, right?
How can we believe that logic and reason matter at all, if we are only going to use them to justify what we feel?
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I'd say passion pretty much governs every action and decision. I've always thought of morals as nothing more than glorified passions. Quite a few morals aren't logical and some are even without reason.
I'd say I live that pretty exclusively. I don't really care weather something is logical or not, I'll do it because I want to do it or vice-versa, and I don't care if anyone else thinks it is wrong or not by rhyme or reason. Oh well, that's getting more into my nihilist side, and that's for another debate. XD
I'd say I live that pretty exclusively. I don't really care weather something is logical or not, I'll do it because I want to do it or vice-versa, and I don't care if anyone else thinks it is wrong or not by rhyme or reason. Oh well, that's getting more into my nihilist side, and that's for another debate. XD
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I do not buy into the recently resurgent reductionist determinism that is making the rounds. Not without reason Vul, Harris, Winkielman & Pashler (2008) criticized the methodology this determinism is rooted in as voodoo science.
There are actions - a very large part of our daily agenda - which we decide upon instinctively, emotionally and later rationalize. There are, however decisions which we make rationally. Psychopaths are a good indication that this view has its merits.
I fail to see the illogical, irrational part in that. In fact, that seems to me the apex of abstract, logical thought.
There are actions - a very large part of our daily agenda - which we decide upon instinctively, emotionally and later rationalize. There are, however decisions which we make rationally. Psychopaths are a good indication that this view has its merits.
Stealing isn't illegal because it makes logical sense for it to be illegal. It is because people don't want their shit stolen.
I fail to see the illogical, irrational part in that. In fact, that seems to me the apex of abstract, logical thought.
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Meh, people created reason to avoid the law of the jungle. Eat or be eaten. Since no one wants to be eaten, they create "rules" that make stuff acceptable, and this way they escape danger.
(dunno if this is the kind of response you were hoping for)
(dunno if this is the kind of response you were hoping for)
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gibbous wrote...
Stealing isn't illegal because it makes logical sense for it to be illegal. It is because people don't want their shit stolen.
I fail to see the illogical, irrational part in that. In fact, that seems to me the apex of abstract, logical thought.
It's not illogical, but it's not as if people came to the decision because it is logical. People made the decision because it made them feel better. Logic was naught but an afterthought.
That's the point - does logic matter if we only use it after we've already made a decision?
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It's not illogical, but it's not as if people came to the decision because it is logical. People made the decision because it made them feel better. Logic was naught but an afterthought.
Whence do you infer that?
To me it's pretty realistic to assume that some troglodytes decided stealing was not OK in their community because stealing means that eventually your stuff, too, is at risk of being taken. Nothing irrational thus far.
On the opposite it seems pretty far out to me that said troglodytes stomped their clubs on the cave floor and went: STEALING FORBIDDEN BECAUSE IT MAKES US SAD; then went and spent an hour rationalizing this decision.
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Logic is a system of reasoning, and a demonstration of events to back up ones reasoning. So arbitrarily one could pin passion onto it.
When you own a company, would you not accept a deal that was cheaper, regardless about the sweat-shop labour? A logical person would accept since it would benefit the company, regardless of anyone else in the equation. Someone thinking passionately would decide that they could still benefit from another deal that didn't involve slave-like labour. If we let passions govern the world, then how could we develop what we consider 'fair' rules, when another body of people believes that everyone else should be inferior and working under their thumb? Sure, they might not like it happening to them, but they still enjoy the fruits of it happening to others and thus do not particularly condone the rules at hand.
When you own a company, would you not accept a deal that was cheaper, regardless about the sweat-shop labour? A logical person would accept since it would benefit the company, regardless of anyone else in the equation. Someone thinking passionately would decide that they could still benefit from another deal that didn't involve slave-like labour. If we let passions govern the world, then how could we develop what we consider 'fair' rules, when another body of people believes that everyone else should be inferior and working under their thumb? Sure, they might not like it happening to them, but they still enjoy the fruits of it happening to others and thus do not particularly condone the rules at hand.
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I really want to rape this girl. I do it without thinking about it because like you said, I believed that logic was not as important as my emotion. Does that seem like the right thing?
In my opinion, both reason and logic are equally important. Think about two societies. 1 completely run on pure emotion and another run on pure logic (lol Vulcans). Which one do you think is better? The answer is neither. The emotional society will fail because the people, without logic will destroy themselves from self indulgence, while the logical society will be stable, everyone will be living a meaningless life.
Again, they're both equally important. You can't live without one or the other.
In my opinion, both reason and logic are equally important. Think about two societies. 1 completely run on pure emotion and another run on pure logic (lol Vulcans). Which one do you think is better? The answer is neither. The emotional society will fail because the people, without logic will destroy themselves from self indulgence, while the logical society will be stable, everyone will be living a meaningless life.
Again, they're both equally important. You can't live without one or the other.
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PersonDude wrote...
I really want to rape this girl. I do it without thinking about it because like you said, I believed that logic was not as important as my emotion. Does that seem like the right thing?In my opinion, both reason and logic are equally important. Think about two societies. 1 completely run on pure emotion and another run on pure logic (lol Vulcans). Which one do you think is better? The answer is neither. The emotional society will fail because the people, without logic will destroy themselves from self indulgence, while the logical society will be stable, everyone will be living a meaningless life.
Again, they're both equally important. You can't live without one or the other.
You stole the words from my mouth. Understand that humans often live a life of logic in order to survive, but people can't live like robots either because it creates too much stress. Passion and emotions become important because without it, life would seem meaningless because there's nothing you WANT. This argument boils down to wants vs. needs, and while needs take precedent, most people live a balanced life of wants vs. needs - it's just human nature to be selfish.
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I strongly disagree, I need reason to do things.
Yes, I am a man of reason, passion alone won't suffice, and I'm honest about my actions.
But feelings and emotions being expressed to certain individuals(delusional or reality) are exceptions, you need passion to do this.
Yes, I am a man of reason, passion alone won't suffice, and I'm honest about my actions.
But feelings and emotions being expressed to certain individuals(delusional or reality) are exceptions, you need passion to do this.
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PersonDude wrote...
I really want to rape this girl. I do it without thinking about it because like you said, I believed that logic was not as important as my emotion. Does that seem like the right thing?What if you didn't want to rape the girl because it would mean going to prison? Certainly, going to prison would hurt you, and you would want to avoid such a thing.
Letting your passions rule over reason does not mean that you would do everything that pops into your head. Not wanting to go to jail because jail would suck and make you unhappy isn't a logical decision; it's still using your emotions, primarily, you wanting to have freedom for a long period of time instead of intense freedom for a short period of time.
Does no one else think it funny that we can say that not raping out of fear of going to jail is a logical, rational decision, but we make that decision based on what we feel and may feel?
Imagine a superhero situation - a villain has your best friend and a busload of people hanging on opposite sides over a ravine, and one will fall and die; which do you save, your friend or the bus of people? No matter which choice you make, it's based on how you feel. If you save your friend, it's because you like that person and don't want him/her to die. If you save the bus of people, it's because you don't want to feel the guilt of saving one person over many. You may rationalize it by saying that one life does not outweigh the many, but isn't that a rationalization after the fact, after you have already made your decision?
Anyways, the point isn't to divide passion and reason. It's to see which is more important, which comes first. If something was logical but went against what you wanted, would you not try to come up with some equally logical reason for not doing it? Or do you see that something is logical and then change your emotions to match it?
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ShaggyJebus wrote...
Or do you see that something is logical and then change your emotions to match it?Certainly, we humans do that at least as much. The phenomenon is even easier to observe in things that are beyond our decision and logically seen are entirely disadvantegous - but people will go to great lengths to attach a positive emotion to it.
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ShaggyJebus wrote...
PersonDude wrote...
I really want to rape this girl. I do it without thinking about it because like you said, I believed that logic was not as important as my emotion. Does that seem like the right thing?What if you didn't want to rape the girl because it would mean going to prison? Certainly, going to prison would hurt you, and you would want to avoid such a thing.
Thinking ahead is part of reason and logic because the logical side of you is thinking of the consequences, THEN your emotion would kick in saying, "I don't want to face the consequences."
For example, most murder/rape perpetrators (In the heat of passion) regret doing what they did after they've been sentenced. Why is that? Surely they had the emotion to feel opposed to the outcome. In most cases it's because they were to emotionally charged. A lot of interviews with them yields a "I wasn't thinking straight," out of them. Meaning they weren't able to reason with themselves to think this far ahead.
ShaggyJebus wrote...
Letting your passions rule over reason does not mean that you would do everything that pops into your head.Actually it is. Thinking ahead is a logical part of human nature (Sounding like a broken record). If you don't have the necessary components to think ahead, mindless self indulgence happens.
ShaggyJebus wrote...
Imagine a superhero situation - a villain has your best friend and a busload of people hanging on opposite sides over a ravine, and one will fall and die; which do you save, your friend or the bus of people? No matter which choice you make, it's based on how you feel. If you save your friend, it's because you like that person and don't want him/her to die. If you save the bus of people, it's because you don't want to feel the guilt of saving one person over many. You may rationalize it by saying that one life does not outweigh the many, but isn't that a rationalization after the fact, after you have already made your decision?Again, guilt only comes after thinking ahead and listing the consequences.
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mibuchiha
Fakku Elder
hmm...I kinda disagree with the topic here...to me morality is illogical by itself, like shaggy said, just to satisfy our selfishness and desire for better life. So I wouldn't even take morality as "logical", since logic to me means something factual, not just some self-justifying arguments. That's why I never view moral laws as a product of logic and reason, but just as a general rule that satisfies most people's desires instead.
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Kuroneko1/2 wrote...
Meh, people created reason to avoid the law of the jungle. Eat or be eaten. Since no one wants to be eaten, they create "rules" that make stuff acceptable, and this way they escape danger.(dunno if this is the kind of response you were hoping for)
very well said. That is exactly what I was looking for.
hentairella wrote...
I strongly disagree, I need reason to do things. Yes, I am a man of reason, passion alone won't suffice, and I'm honest about my actions.
But feelings and emotions being expressed to certain individuals(delusional or reality) are exceptions, you need passion to do this.
I agree.
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Logic and reasoning do matter. It is ingrained in how we think. Even the most deluded of us acts in a sort of mad logic.
Let`s say, for example, I feel that there are bugs crawling in my skin and they must be freed from my fleshy coil so that their reign of insectile terror may begin and renew the world. They also burn. They burn fiercly underneath me and they must be free. It would be somewhat logical to rip open my flesh so that these bugs, imagined or not, may be free of me and I may be free of pain.
A more common place example would be the example of a man stealing bread. Let us say he stole it because he was hungry. This is totally logical. He is hungry and he has no money to buy it. What the hell is he going to do, starve? Who wants to die like that?
Passions are just a by-product of this reasoning. If you're hungry, you go get food. If you have the means to do so without causing trouble, then do so. If you don't but are desparate, steal.
We are base creatures, and we function with a basic logical sense. We all strive for something. We all want to be happy, no matter how vague or distant that goal seems to be. If you say you don`t want to be happy, you`re just justifying your seeming depression and making yourself feel better, or have had something terrible happen to you. (okay, this is a very, VERY, generalized and probably incorrect statement, being that I have no experiece with dealing with depressed people. Keep that in mind. If you have actually worked with one, please explain how it truely affects them).
In any case, this topic has made me want to re-read my philosophy books damnit. (Btw. Read "Stumbling on Happiness" I forgot the author's name, but it's really a good read for those who are interested in how people work. Not really a formal text, but that has it's own advantages to it).
Let`s say, for example, I feel that there are bugs crawling in my skin and they must be freed from my fleshy coil so that their reign of insectile terror may begin and renew the world. They also burn. They burn fiercly underneath me and they must be free. It would be somewhat logical to rip open my flesh so that these bugs, imagined or not, may be free of me and I may be free of pain.
A more common place example would be the example of a man stealing bread. Let us say he stole it because he was hungry. This is totally logical. He is hungry and he has no money to buy it. What the hell is he going to do, starve? Who wants to die like that?
Passions are just a by-product of this reasoning. If you're hungry, you go get food. If you have the means to do so without causing trouble, then do so. If you don't but are desparate, steal.
We are base creatures, and we function with a basic logical sense. We all strive for something. We all want to be happy, no matter how vague or distant that goal seems to be. If you say you don`t want to be happy, you`re just justifying your seeming depression and making yourself feel better, or have had something terrible happen to you. (okay, this is a very, VERY, generalized and probably incorrect statement, being that I have no experiece with dealing with depressed people. Keep that in mind. If you have actually worked with one, please explain how it truely affects them).
In any case, this topic has made me want to re-read my philosophy books damnit. (Btw. Read "Stumbling on Happiness" I forgot the author's name, but it's really a good read for those who are interested in how people work. Not really a formal text, but that has it's own advantages to it).
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I agree with most of the posts here, logic dictates everything we do. Your examples of passion also have logic in them no decision a human makes has no passion in it nor does it lack logic. Every human is driven by both passion and logic (at least their logic). Even when people are illogical in their mind it somehow made sense.
For example I want to kill my wife, but I don’t want to go to jail. Passion from my future suffering in prison but it’s logical to want to avoid prison. No one likes prison so it’s logical to avoid it. It’s a matter of logic and passion combined no human can make a decision without both, even if they ignore it they had the moral dilemma even if they denied it.
For example I want to kill my wife, but I don’t want to go to jail. Passion from my future suffering in prison but it’s logical to want to avoid prison. No one likes prison so it’s logical to avoid it. It’s a matter of logic and passion combined no human can make a decision without both, even if they ignore it they had the moral dilemma even if they denied it.
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RantingRavager wrote...
Logic and reasoning do matter. It is ingrained in how we think. Even the most deluded of us acts in a sort of mad logic. Let`s say, for example, I feel that there are bugs crawling in my skin and they must be freed from my fleshy coil so that their reign of insectile terror may begin and renew the world. They also burn. They burn fiercly underneath me and they must be free. It would be somewhat logical to rip open my flesh so that these bugs, imagined or not, may be free of me and I may be free of pain.
A more common place example would be the example of a man stealing bread. Let us say he stole it because he was hungry. This is totally logical. He is hungry and he has no money to buy it. What the hell is he going to do, starve? Who wants to die like that?
Passions are just a by-product of this reasoning. If you're hungry, you go get food. If you have the means to do so without causing trouble, then do so. If you don't but are desparate, steal.
I think you have it backwards. The man steals food because he feels hungry, and then he justifies that it is okay to steal it because he would rather not die. The person claws open his skin because he wants to be rid of the pain, and he reasons that it is better to have torn up skin than deal with the pain. In fact, that is a very illogical decision. If he tears his skin off, he will probably die, and if he doesn't, he will have to endure a very painful existence for a great while as he heals. But he decides to do it anyway, because the way he feels is more important to him than logic.
You say, "If you're hungry, you go get food," but hunger is a feeling. It is a base feeling that has nothing to do with logic. You feel it and want to get rid of it - that's all. If you make logical decisions based around your hunger, you're using logic for the sake of how you feel.
RantingRavager wrote...
We are base creatures, and we function with a basic logical sense. We all strive for something. We all want to be happy, no matter how vague or distant that goal seems to be. If you say you don`t want to be happy, you`re just justifying your seeming depression and making yourself feel better, or have had something terrible happen to you. (okay, this is a very, VERY, generalized and probably incorrect statement, being that I have no experiece with dealing with depressed people. Keep that in mind. If you have actually worked with one, please explain how it truely affects them).One could argue that since happiness is the chief concern, our desires do rule us, instead of reason. After all, happiness is a desire, and if it's the thing we're always trying to attain, we're always going to be using logic to justify trying to get it.
If we keep going back, don't we see that our desires (our passions, if you will) are the first, most important thing we think about?