What's with the double standard?!
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Fadetoblack wrote...
shiyamiko1230 wrote...
Recently I had an encounter with some friends that made me a bit upset and confused.While fighting over something that was probably stupid me and my guy friend fell on the floor only to have him fall on top of me, then of course at the prefect moment my other guy friend walks in thinking the situation was sexual when it wasn't! His response was to high five my friend and shake his head at me and call me nasty!!
Although I know he was joking, social never really is. If a girl likes to have sex she's nasty but if a guy likes to he's perfectly normal cause it's natural. I just don't think it's fair and justified!
Well, you are right. It's things like these that make men look like assholes and girls look like sluts, all because people look at a situation before knowing the full details. This also comes from a society that breaks everything into a certain class based on what someone is, rather than who they are.
For instance: I'm a boy (I use the word 'boy' instead of 'man,'despite being 18, because I know I still have some growing to do before I can say I am a man). If I say I really want to have sex, no one would pay me much mind because they'd just think that it's the testosterone in my body speaking. If a girl says she wants to get laid, she is looked at like she's a whore.
And then we have sexist commercials like this one:
What's the difference in saying 'It's not for women' and saying 'It's not for [insert race/religion/nationality here]
My point is, like everyone else, double standards suck. I wanna see a future in which women and men are both on the same page with everything, from sex to pay checks.
God that commercial upsets me so much for being so stupid and trying to make their discrimination funny. But you seem to understand and I commend you and seeing that you have your own self growth to go through
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shiyamiko1230 wrote...
Spoiler:
God that commercial upsets me so much for being so stupid and trying to make their discrimination funny. But you seem to understand and I commend you and seeing that you have your own self growth to go through
It's my background that gave me this outlook on life. I grew up in a house/family full of women with very little father figures to look up to, (not counting the endless hours of DBZ and Power Rangers)and have many female friends, so when this happens to them, I go on the offensive. Although there are times I do think that women and men go too far. Last semester, a (senior) girl got kicked out for giving a (junior) boy head in the computer lab (and this one had huge windows, so it wasn't like they were trying to hide.) The main reason I don't approve of this was that she already had a kid, so you think she would be just a bit smarter about what she does. It's at this point where I lose all respect for you.
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Fadetoblack wrote...
shiyamiko1230 wrote...
Recently I had an encounter with some friends that made me a bit upset and confused.While fighting over something that was probably stupid me and my guy friend fell on the floor only to have him fall on top of me, then of course at the prefect moment my other guy friend walks in thinking the situation was sexual when it wasn't! His response was to high five my friend and shake his head at me and call me nasty!!
Although I know he was joking, social never really is. If a girl likes to have sex she's nasty but if a guy likes to he's perfectly normal cause it's natural. I just don't think it's fair and justified!
Well, you are right. It's things like these that make men look like assholes and girls look like sluts, all because people look at a situation before knowing the full details. This also comes from a society that breaks everything into a certain class based on what someone is, rather than who they are.
For instance: I'm a boy (I use the word 'boy' instead of 'man,'despite being 18, because I know I still have some growing to do before I can say I am a man). If I say I really want to have sex, no one would pay me much mind because they'd just think that it's the testosterone in my body speaking. If a girl says she wants to get laid, she is looked at like she's a whore.
And then we have sexist commercials like this one:
What's the difference in saying 'It's not for women' and saying 'It's not for [insert race/religion/nationality here]
My point is, like everyone else, double standards suck. I wanna see a future in which women and men are both on the same page with everything, from sex to pay checks.
Is that the new Dr. Pepper commerical? The video isn't working on my computer.
And double standards are bullshit, but what is wrong with making a sex joke, though calling you nasty is wrong unless you got a VD which I assume you don't.
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shiyamiko1230 wrote...
Fadetoblack wrote...
shiyamiko1230 wrote...
Recently I had an encounter with some friends that made me a bit upset and confused.While fighting over something that was probably stupid me and my guy friend fell on the floor only to have him fall on top of me, then of course at the prefect moment my other guy friend walks in thinking the situation was sexual when it wasn't! His response was to high five my friend and shake his head at me and call me nasty!!
Although I know he was joking, social never really is. If a girl likes to have sex she's nasty but if a guy likes to he's perfectly normal cause it's natural. I just don't think it's fair and justified!
Well, you are right. It's things like these that make men look like assholes and girls look like sluts, all because people look at a situation before knowing the full details. This also comes from a society that breaks everything into a certain class based on what someone is, rather than who they are.
For instance: I'm a boy (I use the word 'boy' instead of 'man,'despite being 18, because I know I still have some growing to do before I can say I am a man). If I say I really want to have sex, no one would pay me much mind because they'd just think that it's the testosterone in my body speaking. If a girl says she wants to get laid, she is looked at like she's a whore.
My point is, like everyone else, double standards suck. I wanna see a future in which women and men are both on the same page with everything, from sex to pay checks.
God that commercial upsets me so much for being so stupid and trying to make their discrimination funny. But you seem to understand and I commend you and seeing that you have your own self growth to go through
Ok I assume you are a girl, and great there's not enough of them on the Internet.
There also isn't enough of them wanting to fuck for it to become socially acceptable. I'm STEREOTYPING here. Yes I know that many people call STEREOTYPING racism, or sexism. But they are wrong.
When I go to Mexico I get shots and some flu tablets in my bag. I know that not ALL of Mexico is dirty and disease ridden, but I'd rather not take my chances. Hence it's a useful stereotype, nothing bad.
Now to translate it in to the situation you found yourself in, I guess that you personally as a girl don't fuck around too much. THerefore people don't expect you to be too easy on a first date, or a chance meeting. The guy who shook his head was a good lad, because he was just showing (through humour) that you're acting out of your type. Thank him.
And as far as the general stereotype of girls being sluts if they fuck around too much goes, I'm sorry to say its the same for men, IN SPECIFIC PLACES. Have you ever heard of a doctor who changes his girlfriends like gloves? No. Because the Stereotype of a doctor is such and such, and people would start shaking their heads at a doctor who doesn't keep to that stereotype.
So next time you get angry at some boy for calling you a slut, slap him. Then slap yourself for not being a good girl. Then slap the nearest good girl next to you for being an abstaining wench. And try to change the stereotype, because without them, life would be harder and much less predictable.
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Flaser
OCD Hentai Collector
frodomir14 wrote...
shiyamiko1230 wrote...
Fadetoblack wrote...
shiyamiko1230 wrote...
Recently I had an encounter with some friends that made me a bit upset and confused.While fighting over something that was probably stupid me and my guy friend fell on the floor only to have him fall on top of me, then of course at the prefect moment my other guy friend walks in thinking the situation was sexual when it wasn't! His response was to high five my friend and shake his head at me and call me nasty!!
Although I know he was joking, social never really is. If a girl likes to have sex she's nasty but if a guy likes to he's perfectly normal cause it's natural. I just don't think it's fair and justified!
Well, you are right. It's things like these that make men look like assholes and girls look like sluts, all because people look at a situation before knowing the full details. This also comes from a society that breaks everything into a certain class based on what someone is, rather than who they are.
For instance: I'm a boy (I use the word 'boy' instead of 'man,'despite being 18, because I know I still have some growing to do before I can say I am a man). If I say I really want to have sex, no one would pay me much mind because they'd just think that it's the testosterone in my body speaking. If a girl says she wants to get laid, she is looked at like she's a whore.
My point is, like everyone else, double standards suck. I wanna see a future in which women and men are both on the same page with everything, from sex to pay checks.
God that commercial upsets me so much for being so stupid and trying to make their discrimination funny. But you seem to understand and I commend you and seeing that you have your own self growth to go through
Ok I assume you are a girl, and great there's not enough of them on the Internet.
There also isn't enough of them wanting to fuck for it to become socially acceptable. I'm STEREOTYPING here. Yes I know that many people call STEREOTYPING racism, or sexism. But they are wrong.
When I go to Mexico I get shots and some flu tablets in my bag. I know that not ALL of Mexico is dirty and disease ridden, but I'd rather not take my chances. Hence it's a useful stereotype, nothing bad.
Now to translate it in to the situation you found yourself in, I guess that you personally as a girl don't fuck around too much. THerefore people don't expect you to be too easy on a first date, or a chance meeting. The guy who shook his head was a good lad, because he was just showing (through humour) that you're acting out of your type. Thank him.
And as far as the general stereotype of girls being sluts if they fuck around too much goes, I'm sorry to say its the same for men, IN SPECIFIC PLACES. Have you ever heard of a doctor who changes his girlfriends like gloves? No. Because the Stereotype of a doctor is such and such, and people would start shaking their heads at a doctor who doesn't keep to that stereotype.
So next time you get angry at some boy for calling you a slut, slap him. Then slap yourself for not being a good girl. Then slap the nearest good girl next to you for being an abstaining wench. And try to change the stereotype, because without them, life would be harder and much less predictable.
You know what, "pal"? People who call this sexism/chauvinism are RIGHT. All you've spouted that it's useful - to you! - to have a stereotype around that lets you judge people by brief impressions. You never even stop to consider how damn unfair and bigoted said stereotypes are.
Your advice about acting like a retard and going 100% anti-social is pure ignorant bullshit... in fact I can't help but be disgusted with your attempt at "prole speak" as you give off the vibe of an over-groomed prick.
Here is the thing: if it were up to guys like you, people would still be sold like chattel, woman would be made to stay in the kitchen and barons would rule over the land.
Thanks but no thanks.
People with genuine refinement are those with the courage to stand up for what they believe is right and speak out against cruelty and injustice. If this rocks the boat and ruins your "genteel time"... too bad.
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Flaser wrote...
You know what, "pal"? People who call this sexism/chauvinism are RIGHT. All you've spouted that it's useful - to you! - to have a stereotype around that lets you judge people by brief impressions. You never even stop to consider how damn unfair and bigoted said stereotypes are.
Your advice about acting like a retard and going 100% anti-social is pure ignorant bullshit... in fact I can't help but be disgusted with your attempt at "prole speak" as you give off the vibe of an over-groomed prick.
Here is the thing: if it were up to guys like you, people would still be sold like chattel, woman would be made to stay in the kitchen and barons would rule over the land.
Thanks but no thanks.
People with genuine refinement are those with the courage to stand up for what they believe is right and speak out against cruelty and injustice. If this rocks the boat and ruins your "genteel time"... too bad.
youre right. having an opinion about something and then keeping that opinion untill enough evidence is supplied to prove you otherwise is very bad. and im sorry. next time i look at a girl ill expect her to act just as like me. or even better, i won't expect her to act at all, as if she wasnt human. and with that in mind, ill ask her which planet she comes from, assuming she even speaks my language.
how this is connected to the thread? well, OP seemed to have a problem with some guy looking at her like a slut. i wonder if she looked at him like an asshole too, because obviously every guy who shakes his head when he comes in to the room with 2 people on the floor thinks all girls are sluts and guys are studs. and if he does (again stereotype) than maybe hes homo… i mean why else would a guy care about what another guy thinks about him (assuming theyre just friends) when theres a female friend right next to him…?
to keep it short, i dont think its racism/chauvinism when someone has expectations/opinions about people because without those expectations humanity wastes time and falls down to some sort of viscious cylce of exploring everybodys personality as if it wasnt built on the groundwork of the society they come from. Which i guess is what youre suggesting. and its also the reason why you just made a judgement about my own set of morals from one post! or am i wrong?
and to finish off, if by prole speak you are trying to say that im highliting the more important parts of my argument (which mind you many people DO) then im cool with that.
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Ok, so...here's my thing. It might not be the most popular opinion, but...here goes.
Double standards exist. This is a fact.
Double standards aren't necessarily a bad thing. The fact is, there's a stark difference between men and women, in many different ways. Denying these differences only serves to make them awkward physical truths that we can no longer socially acknowledge. When I say the phrase, "In general, men tend to be stronger than women" I'm not being misogynistic. I'm stating an observed fact. When I say, "In general, women tend to be more emotional than men." I'm not being a hater of women...I'm stating an observed fact.
When I say men aren't as capable of working as a team as women, I'm stating an observed fact. The need to be the alpha is strong within the male kind of the species. When I say that men tend not to empathize as well as women...that's also an observed fact.
That all being said, I think the doub;e standard that's been brought up all over the world, in all sorts of venues, that men with multiple partners are applauded, and women with multiple partners are looked down on...isn't really true.
IT is true, the point that it happens. But it's not near as...prominent in the fields of being social, that people seem to think it is.
For instance, I'm of the position that I appreciate a woman who has, shall we say, been around? I'm of the position that a woman can do whatever she desires with her body, because....well...it's her body. IF she wants to be chaste, fine. IF she doesn't want to be, that's fine too. The difference is that the main people who DON'T appreciate the unchaste women are...usually, though not exclusively admittedly, other women.
Just like men don't like other men succeeding, because we all wish to be the superior specimen...women don't want other women having so much sex...because it increases the competitive field. It makes it difficult to trust boyfriends(or girlfriends if they're lesbians and bisexual) around those women that are more sexually open. It makes it difficult to COMPETE with those kinds of women.
IT stems, in part, I think, from the fact that women do have the right to their own bodies, and they wish to have no reprecussions for whatever choices they make. In their minds, they shouldn't have limitted relationship options because they're chaste, and men, in the modern day at least, tend to wish for a physical, as well as emotional relationship. In their minds it's not fair that because they've decided to be picky, or extremely patient, then the women who AREN'T picky, or patient, somehow get 'rewarded' with relationships and sexual intercourse.
Men aren't like that. Very, VERY rarely do men make the choice to remain chaste, and when they do, it's considered extremely odd. So...men don't judge eachother on the basis of how sexually open they are. Instead, we compete over who's the MOSt sexually open, with the goal of sleeping with the most women(or men, depending on preference) and having the most stories to share with our friends.
When it comes to dealing with the opposite sex, men and women are competing in two different fields. Women compete, in general, over who can have the most loving and stable relationship. And when other women are being sexually open, that indirectly, and sometimes directly, puts a strain on those relationships. Meanwhile men are competing to se who can have the most partners, and experience the most out of sex.
TL;DR
Yes, there's a double standard, and it's there for good reason. If you don't like it, I have only one thing to say: tough. Grow a backbone. You have chosen to live differently, and will be judged for it. You don't get to say, "But but but you should respect my life choices!" and then have everyone in the world go, "Oh, then you do what you wanna do." You don't get to dictate how your peers will judge you. Deal...with...it.
Edit: I've never seen Flaser mad before. It's smexy.
Double standards exist. This is a fact.
Double standards aren't necessarily a bad thing. The fact is, there's a stark difference between men and women, in many different ways. Denying these differences only serves to make them awkward physical truths that we can no longer socially acknowledge. When I say the phrase, "In general, men tend to be stronger than women" I'm not being misogynistic. I'm stating an observed fact. When I say, "In general, women tend to be more emotional than men." I'm not being a hater of women...I'm stating an observed fact.
When I say men aren't as capable of working as a team as women, I'm stating an observed fact. The need to be the alpha is strong within the male kind of the species. When I say that men tend not to empathize as well as women...that's also an observed fact.
That all being said, I think the doub;e standard that's been brought up all over the world, in all sorts of venues, that men with multiple partners are applauded, and women with multiple partners are looked down on...isn't really true.
IT is true, the point that it happens. But it's not near as...prominent in the fields of being social, that people seem to think it is.
For instance, I'm of the position that I appreciate a woman who has, shall we say, been around? I'm of the position that a woman can do whatever she desires with her body, because....well...it's her body. IF she wants to be chaste, fine. IF she doesn't want to be, that's fine too. The difference is that the main people who DON'T appreciate the unchaste women are...usually, though not exclusively admittedly, other women.
Just like men don't like other men succeeding, because we all wish to be the superior specimen...women don't want other women having so much sex...because it increases the competitive field. It makes it difficult to trust boyfriends(or girlfriends if they're lesbians and bisexual) around those women that are more sexually open. It makes it difficult to COMPETE with those kinds of women.
IT stems, in part, I think, from the fact that women do have the right to their own bodies, and they wish to have no reprecussions for whatever choices they make. In their minds, they shouldn't have limitted relationship options because they're chaste, and men, in the modern day at least, tend to wish for a physical, as well as emotional relationship. In their minds it's not fair that because they've decided to be picky, or extremely patient, then the women who AREN'T picky, or patient, somehow get 'rewarded' with relationships and sexual intercourse.
Men aren't like that. Very, VERY rarely do men make the choice to remain chaste, and when they do, it's considered extremely odd. So...men don't judge eachother on the basis of how sexually open they are. Instead, we compete over who's the MOSt sexually open, with the goal of sleeping with the most women(or men, depending on preference) and having the most stories to share with our friends.
When it comes to dealing with the opposite sex, men and women are competing in two different fields. Women compete, in general, over who can have the most loving and stable relationship. And when other women are being sexually open, that indirectly, and sometimes directly, puts a strain on those relationships. Meanwhile men are competing to se who can have the most partners, and experience the most out of sex.
TL;DR
Yes, there's a double standard, and it's there for good reason. If you don't like it, I have only one thing to say: tough. Grow a backbone. You have chosen to live differently, and will be judged for it. You don't get to say, "But but but you should respect my life choices!" and then have everyone in the world go, "Oh, then you do what you wanna do." You don't get to dictate how your peers will judge you. Deal...with...it.
Edit: I've never seen Flaser mad before. It's smexy.
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Lollikittie wrote...
I embrace this, to be honest. I'm a little hornball. If I do/say something that seems suggestive, it's probably intentional. I wasn't this way always, I used to hide it, instead.But to be honest.. I'm just going to be myself, and who I am, and I couldn't give less of a crap what's thought of me.
I used to.. worry myself half to death about everyone's opinions. Societal norms. Expectations based on my gender... Just.. screw it all.
Personally.. I think the more women who stop giving such a profound fuck about how they're perceived.. the more progress we might actually make.
If you don't like the message you're hearing, ignore it.
This is one of the best things I've read in a while, +repped. I strongly endorse the "If you don't like the message you're hearing, ignore it" message. Compared to the "people shouldn't say hurtful things" idea, this one has a drop of coherence and maturity.
While I think think OP's friends (or maybe just one of them?) was in the wrong, and it would be nice for their/his views on female sexuality to change, worse things have happened.
Flaser wrote...
Mr.Shaggnificent wrote...
If a key opens many locks, it is a master. if a lock can be opened by many keys, it's a shitty lock.seriously though, i supose it's because women hold most all the sexual power, and men are jealous of that.
Let me quote myself, since I've already expressed my views on this bullshit:
Flaser wrote...
SamRavster wrote...
[font=verdana][color=green][i]"A key that opens many locks is a great key. A lock that opens to many keys is just a shitty lock". Except a pussy is not a lock, and you dong is not a key, just a fucked up sausage that was left out in the sun too long.
Frankly that "Aesop" is getting waaaay too old.
We're not living in the Middle Ages and girls aren't trophies to be "won" or "sold" in exchange for an alliance.
...and no, dominance and the enjoyment of dominance games in relationships/sex doesn't validate it either in any way. Just because someone can enjoy being submissive doesn't mean that it's OK to treat them that way by default. I also wonder how many "M" girls would be OK with their fetish if it was forced on them, instead a kink they can live out with their chosen partner.
A pussy is a sex organ. So is a dick. Playing with them brings pleasure. That's it.
Play nice! Play Safe! (...give head and for God's sake, if you fuck someone up the least you can do is give a reach around).
...or Uncle Flaser and his Bitch Brigade will bring the wrath of Feminist Pimps down on ya ass!
Wow, I totally agree with you (+rep later). I'm a biologist, and honestly, I regret that the information my kind has disseminated amongst the general public is being used to support views like the lock/key analogy. (Frankly, over 9/10 of the usages of evolution to back up a viewpoint in a non-scientific discussion which I've witnessed have been quite stupid, imo, and that's even before stepping foot in social Darwinist territory...)
tl;dr
I was quite pleased with several posts in this thread.
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ryuuhagoku wrote...
Lollikittie wrote...
I embrace this, to be honest. I'm a little hornball. If I do/say something that seems suggestive, it's probably intentional. I wasn't this way always, I used to hide it, instead.But to be honest.. I'm just going to be myself, and who I am, and I couldn't give less of a crap what's thought of me.
I used to.. worry myself half to death about everyone's opinions. Societal norms. Expectations based on my gender... Just.. screw it all.
Personally.. I think the more women who stop giving such a profound fuck about how they're perceived.. the more progress we might actually make.
If you don't like the message you're hearing, ignore it.
This is one of the best things I've read in a while, +repped. I strongly endorse the "If you don't like the message you're hearing, ignore it" message. Compared to the "people shouldn't say hurtful things" idea, this one has a drop of coherence and maturity.
While I think think OP's friends (or maybe just one of them?) was in the wrong, and it would be nice for their/his views on female sexuality to change, worse things have happened.
Flaser wrote...
Mr.Shaggnificent wrote...
If a key opens many locks, it is a master. if a lock can be opened by many keys, it's a shitty lock.seriously though, i supose it's because women hold most all the sexual power, and men are jealous of that.
Let me quote myself, since I've already expressed my views on this bullshit:
Flaser wrote...
SamRavster wrote...
[font=verdana][color=green][i]"A key that opens many locks is a great key. A lock that opens to many keys is just a shitty lock". Except a pussy is not a lock, and you dong is not a key, just a fucked up sausage that was left out in the sun too long.
Frankly that "Aesop" is getting waaaay too old.
We're not living in the Middle Ages and girls aren't trophies to be "won" or "sold" in exchange for an alliance.
...and no, dominance and the enjoyment of dominance games in relationships/sex doesn't validate it either in any way. Just because someone can enjoy being submissive doesn't mean that it's OK to treat them that way by default. I also wonder how many "M" girls would be OK with their fetish if it was forced on them, instead a kink they can live out with their chosen partner.
A pussy is a sex organ. So is a dick. Playing with them brings pleasure. That's it.
Play nice! Play Safe! (...give head and for God's sake, if you fuck someone up the least you can do is give a reach around).
...or Uncle Flaser and his Bitch Brigade will bring the wrath of Feminist Pimps down on ya ass!
Wow, I totally agree with you (+rep later). I'm a biologist, and honestly, I regret that the information my kind has disseminated amongst the general public is being used to support views like the lock/key analogy. (Frankly, over 9/10 of the usages of evolution to back up a viewpoint in a non-scientific discussion which I've witnessed have been quite stupid, imo, and that's even before stepping foot in social Darwinist territory...)
tl;dr
I was quite pleased with several posts in this thread.
I also agree more or less completely with frodomir14. When I imagine being in the same situation as the friend walking in on two of my friends lying on each other I could react in the same way as her friend. But I could also say you go girl and sigh a bit at the guy, or I could tell them to get a room and in some cases I'd just walk out and pretend I hadn't seen anything, etc etc. All depending on who were lying there and what I think about them.
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I honestly expected people to blow this off but instead I got some awesome answers from guys and girls as well that I will soon shove down my friends throat, right before I push his tall ass down from calling me nasty.
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Koyori wrote...
ryuuhagoku wrote...
Wow, I totally agree with you (+rep later). I'm a biologist, and honestly, I regret that the information my kind has disseminated amongst the general public is being used to support views like the lock/key analogy. (Frankly, over 9/10 of the usages of evolution to back up a viewpoint in a non-scientific discussion which I've witnessed have been quite stupid, imo, and that's even before stepping foot in social Darwinist territory...)tl;dr
I was quite pleased with several posts in this thread.
I also agree more or less completely with frodomir14. When I imagine being in the same situation as the friend walking in on two of my friends lying on each other I could react in the same way as her friend. But I could also say you go girl and sigh a bit at the guy, or I could tell them to get a room and in some cases I'd just walk out and pretend I hadn't seen anything, etc etc. All depending on who were lying there and what I think about them.
While I also don't agree that the only difference between men is women is the formation of 1 set of organs, I don't think evolutionary history should define our future behavior. It very much explains our past, but that past does not necessitate one particular future.
Okay, that may have sounded too vague and dreamy... What I mean is that, regardless of what bodies we are endowed with, we must all still strive for happiness in life, and sexual pleasure is one such happiness., one which is greatly enhanced by liberation from traditional sexual roles.
On the topic of stereotypes, I actually don't dislike them, most of the time. When presented with information, it is not only one's right, but also one's obligation to draw conclusions, however limited they may be. The wrong stems from not adjusting those conclusions in the face of incoming information.
Let me give you an example of a gender-bias I hold: with the exception of my grandmother, every female whom I have ever witnessed packing (for travel) has been quite slow. Therefore, when a female packing is related to my plans in some way, I expect a certain amount of delay. Now say I was to find a female who was a fast and efficient packer. Before I find anything to the contrary, it would be understandable for me to feel that she would take a long time, although I would be stupid to deny the other possibility. Once I witnessed her style of packing, it would be nothing short of imbecilic of me to insist that "Well, you're a woman, so you must be slow at packing."
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Some sexual liberty is socially granted to men, yet it is not given to women. It's not that society has put women down any more sexually since the 1800s; society has merely given men more sexual freedom first. There have been great advances in sexual liberty for women, but far more expansive ones for men, but even then, this varies widely from culture to culture. Where I come from, if you have sex or dye your hair, you are a whore, gender disregarded.
1
ryuuhagoku wrote...
Koyori wrote...
ryuuhagoku wrote...
Wow, I totally agree with you (+rep later). I'm a biologist, and honestly, I regret that the information my kind has disseminated amongst the general public is being used to support views like the lock/key analogy. (Frankly, over 9/10 of the usages of evolution to back up a viewpoint in a non-scientific discussion which I've witnessed have been quite stupid, imo, and that's even before stepping foot in social Darwinist territory...)tl;dr
I was quite pleased with several posts in this thread.
I also agree more or less completely with frodomir14. When I imagine being in the same situation as the friend walking in on two of my friends lying on each other I could react in the same way as her friend. But I could also say you go girl and sigh a bit at the guy, or I could tell them to get a room and in some cases I'd just walk out and pretend I hadn't seen anything, etc etc. All depending on who were lying there and what I think about them.
While I also don't agree that the only difference between men is women is the formation of 1 set of organs, I don't think evolutionary history should define our future behavior. It very much explains our past, but that past does not necessitate one particular future.
Okay, that may have sounded too vague and dreamy... What I mean is that, regardless of what bodies we are endowed with, we must all still strive for happiness in life, and sexual pleasure is one such happiness., one which is greatly enhanced by liberation from traditional sexual roles.
On the topic of stereotypes, I actually don't dislike them, most of the time. When presented with information, it is not only one's right, but also one's obligation to draw conclusions, however limited they may be. The wrong stems from not adjusting those conclusions in the face of incoming information.
Let me give you an example of a gender-bias I hold: with the exception of my grandmother, every female whom I have ever witnessed packing (for travel) has been quite slow. Therefore, when a female packing is related to my plans in some way, I expect a certain amount of delay. Now say I was to find a female who was a fast and efficient packer. Before I find anything to the contrary, it would be understandable for me to feel that she would take a long time, although I would be stupid to deny the other possibility. Once I witnessed her style of packing, it would be nothing short of imbecilic of me to insist that "Well, you're a woman, so you must be slow at packing."
My points are only that everything isn't cultural and those things won't be changed any time soon, and most people don't want women and men to behave the same so why force it.
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Flaser
OCD Hentai Collector
Koyori wrote...
ryuuhagoku wrote...
Koyori wrote...
ryuuhagoku wrote...
Wow, I totally agree with you (+rep later). I'm a biologist, and honestly, I regret that the information my kind has disseminated amongst the general public is being used to support views like the lock/key analogy. (Frankly, over 9/10 of the usages of evolution to back up a viewpoint in a non-scientific discussion which I've witnessed have been quite stupid, imo, and that's even before stepping foot in social Darwinist territory...)tl;dr
I was quite pleased with several posts in this thread.
I also agree more or less completely with frodomir14. When I imagine being in the same situation as the friend walking in on two of my friends lying on each other I could react in the same way as her friend. But I could also say you go girl and sigh a bit at the guy, or I could tell them to get a room and in some cases I'd just walk out and pretend I hadn't seen anything, etc etc. All depending on who were lying there and what I think about them.
While I also don't agree that the only difference between men is women is the formation of 1 set of organs, I don't think evolutionary history should define our future behavior. It very much explains our past, but that past does not necessitate one particular future.
Okay, that may have sounded too vague and dreamy... What I mean is that, regardless of what bodies we are endowed with, we must all still strive for happiness in life, and sexual pleasure is one such happiness., one which is greatly enhanced by liberation from traditional sexual roles.
On the topic of stereotypes, I actually don't dislike them, most of the time. When presented with information, it is not only one's right, but also one's obligation to draw conclusions, however limited they may be. The wrong stems from not adjusting those conclusions in the face of incoming information.
Let me give you an example of a gender-bias I hold: with the exception of my grandmother, every female whom I have ever witnessed packing (for travel) has been quite slow. Therefore, when a female packing is related to my plans in some way, I expect a certain amount of delay. Now say I was to find a female who was a fast and efficient packer. Before I find anything to the contrary, it would be understandable for me to feel that she would take a long time, although I would be stupid to deny the other possibility. Once I witnessed her style of packing, it would be nothing short of imbecilic of me to insist that "Well, you're a woman, so you must be slow at packing."
My points are only that everything isn't cultural and those things won't be changed any time soon, and most people don't want women and men to behave the same so why force it.
I believe you're completely missing the picture. I'm not talking about enforcing behavior, I'm talking about others judging your behavior and pushing their stereotypes onto you.
Yes, the sexes are different... but not to the degree that you can assume people will all fall into the median of the bell curve of their own sex or that you could discriminate/antagonize people for falling outside it.
What infuriates me is not that the sexes are not equal - that'd be dumb - but the fact that people are forced to conform to the perceived stereotypes based on their sex rather than choose how they want to live.
I could make the same argument about race, ancestry, religion whatever, my point would remain the same, for it's basically not about any inherent property of said qualities, but a basic tenet of modern morality.
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Koyori wrote...
ryuuhagoku wrote...
Koyori wrote...
ryuuhagoku wrote...
Wow, I totally agree with you (+rep later). I'm a biologist, and honestly, I regret that the information my kind has disseminated amongst the general public is being used to support views like the lock/key analogy. (Frankly, over 9/10 of the usages of evolution to back up a viewpoint in a non-scientific discussion which I've witnessed have been quite stupid, imo, and that's even before stepping foot in social Darwinist territory...)tl;dr
I was quite pleased with several posts in this thread.
I also agree more or less completely with frodomir14. When I imagine being in the same situation as the friend walking in on two of my friends lying on each other I could react in the same way as her friend. But I could also say you go girl and sigh a bit at the guy, or I could tell them to get a room and in some cases I'd just walk out and pretend I hadn't seen anything, etc etc. All depending on who were lying there and what I think about them.
While I also don't agree that the only difference between men is women is the formation of 1 set of organs, I don't think evolutionary history should define our future behavior. It very much explains our past, but that past does not necessitate one particular future.
Okay, that may have sounded too vague and dreamy... What I mean is that, regardless of what bodies we are endowed with, we must all still strive for happiness in life, and sexual pleasure is one such happiness, one which is greatly enhanced by liberation from traditional sexual roles.
On the topic of stereotypes, I actually don't dislike them, most of the time. When presented with information, it is not only one's right, but also one's obligation to draw conclusions, however limited they may be. The wrong stems from not adjusting those conclusions in the face of incoming information.
Let me give you an example of a gender-bias I hold: with the exception of my grandmother, every female whom I have ever witnessed packing (for travel) has been quite slow. Therefore, when a female packing is related to my plans in some way, I expect a certain amount of delay. Now say I was to find a female who was a fast and efficient packer. Before I find anything to the contrary, it would be understandable for me to feel that she would take a long time, although I would be stupid to deny the other possibility. Once I witnessed her style of packing, it would be nothing short of imbecilic of me to insist that "Well, you're a woman, so you must be slow at packing."
My points are only that everything isn't cultural and those things won't be changed any time soon, and most people don't want women and men to behave the same so why force it.
Really? You haven't seen gender roles in real life? I'll let you reconsider before retorting to that statement.
Like Flaser said, I don't think anyone is for imposing thought control on society or anything of that sort. But, when individuals see things in a way one feels is unfair, it's hardly extreme for said person to voice an objection.
Actually, I agree with everything Flaser just said, so no point repeating him/her (I had assumed Flaser was a male due to usage of self-referential male pronouns, but I'm guessing that's not the case?)
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I believe the intention of this thread is not to discuss whether or not it is a good idea to object to these stereotypes, but rather.. why it is considered strange or wrong to behave contrarily to them, so much so that one may be shamed or otherwise chided for such behavior.
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shiyamiko1230 wrote...
Recently I had an encounter with some friends that made me a bit upset and confused.While fighting over something that was probably stupid me and my guy friend fell on the floor only to have him fall on top of me, then of course at the prefect moment my other guy friend walks in thinking the situation was sexual when it wasn't! His response was to high five my friend and shake his head at me and call me nasty!!
Although I know he was joking, social never really is. If a girl likes to have sex she's nasty but if a guy likes to he's perfectly normal cause it's natural. I just don't think it's fair and justified!
a guy can get multiple women pregnant and pass his dna down to future generations. Women can have sex with multiple guys but only one baby is born. It's all social evolution. to clarify, it makes sense for men to have multiple partners, so society accepts that, it doesn't for females, so society doesn't. Is it right, or wrong? from the scientific standpoint it's fine. Other than that, it's personal and in that there is no right and wrong.
On a side note, I'd rather no be with a woman who has slept with a bunch of different men, so I can understand that reason as well.
also maybe it all stems from being afraid of crossing the streams? we may not want to find out if so and so is better in bed or has a humongus dong.
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Flaser
OCD Hentai Collector
COOKIES4LIFE wrote...
shiyamiko1230 wrote...
Recently I had an encounter with some friends that made me a bit upset and confused.While fighting over something that was probably stupid me and my guy friend fell on the floor only to have him fall on top of me, then of course at the prefect moment my other guy friend walks in thinking the situation was sexual when it wasn't! His response was to high five my friend and shake his head at me and call me nasty!!
Although I know he was joking, social never really is. If a girl likes to have sex she's nasty but if a guy likes to he's perfectly normal cause it's natural. I just don't think it's fair and justified!
a guy can get multiple women pregnant and pass his dna down to future generations. Women can have sex with multiple guys but only one baby is born. It's all social evolution. to clarify, it makes sense for men to have multiple partners, so society accepts that, it doesn't for females, so society doesn't. Is it right, or wrong? from the scientific standpoint it's fine. Other than that, it's personal and in that there is no right and wrong.
On a side note, I'd rather no be with a woman who has slept with a bunch of different men, so I can understand that reason as well.
also maybe it all stems from being afraid of crossing the streams? we may not want to find out if so and so is better in bed or has a humongus dong.
There are birds who intentionally mate with more than one male. They do this to ensure to support of both males as neither knows whose child they are rearing and the subsequent boost in resources gives a better chance the chicks will grow up healthy and strong.
Applying evolutionary theory is full of pitfalls... especially when one tries to do so with humans.
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Flaser wrote...
COOKIES4LIFE wrote...
shiyamiko1230 wrote...
Recently I had an encounter with some friends that made me a bit upset and confused.While fighting over something that was probably stupid me and my guy friend fell on the floor only to have him fall on top of me, then of course at the prefect moment my other guy friend walks in thinking the situation was sexual when it wasn't! His response was to high five my friend and shake his head at me and call me nasty!!
Although I know he was joking, social never really is. If a girl likes to have sex she's nasty but if a guy likes to he's perfectly normal cause it's natural. I just don't think it's fair and justified!
a guy can get multiple women pregnant and pass his dna down to future generations. Women can have sex with multiple guys but only one baby is born. It's all social evolution. to clarify, it makes sense for men to have multiple partners, so society accepts that, it doesn't for females, so society doesn't. Is it right, or wrong? from the scientific standpoint it's fine. Other than that, it's personal and in that there is no right and wrong.
On a side note, I'd rather no be with a woman who has slept with a bunch of different men, so I can understand that reason as well.
also maybe it all stems from being afraid of crossing the streams? we may not want to find out if so and so is better in bed or has a humongus dong.
There are birds who intentionally mate with more than one male. They do this to ensure to support of both males as neither knows whose child they are rearing and the subsequent boost in resources gives a better chance the chicks will grow up healthy and strong.
Applying evolutionary theory is full of pitfalls... especially when one tries to do so with humans.
I think whales do this too, but we are most closely related to apes, and I don't think that's the case with them. I agree with the pitfalls, but its just one way to find an answer that I feel to be most correct. I don't really think there is just one answer.
On second thought I think crossing the streams may have more to do with it than I originally thought.
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shiyamiko1230 wrote...
Fadetoblack wrote...
shiyamiko1230 wrote...
Recently I had an encounter with some friends that made me a bit upset and confused.While fighting over something that was probably stupid me and my guy friend fell on the floor only to have him fall on top of me, then of course at the prefect moment my other guy friend walks in thinking the situation was sexual when it wasn't! His response was to high five my friend and shake his head at me and call me nasty!!
Although I know he was joking, social never really is. If a girl likes to have sex she's nasty but if a guy likes to he's perfectly normal cause it's natural. I just don't think it's fair and justified!
Well, you are right. It's things like these that make men look like assholes and girls look like sluts, all because people look at a situation before knowing the full details. This also comes from a society that breaks everything into a certain class based on what someone is, rather than who they are.
For instance: I'm a boy (I use the word 'boy' instead of 'man,'despite being 18, because I know I still have some growing to do before I can say I am a man). If I say I really want to have sex, no one would pay me much mind because they'd just think that it's the testosterone in my body speaking. If a girl says she wants to get laid, she is looked at like she's a whore.
And then we have sexist commercials like this one:
What's the difference in saying 'It's not for women' and saying 'It's not for [insert race/religion/nationality here]
My point is, like everyone else, double standards suck. I wanna see a future in which women and men are both on the same page with everything, from sex to pay checks.
God that commercial upsets me so much for being so stupid and trying to make their discrimination funny. But you seem to understand and I commend you and seeing that you have your own self growth to go through
that commercial isn't discriminating against women, just the opposite. it's trying to deter the stigma that 'diet'='feminine'. the first instance of this advertising technique i can recall is that 64 calorie light beer. or the weight watchers ones with the sports celebrities.
edit: coors light and the silver bullet came before the 64 calorie ones.