.hack
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A few questions: With the monster list (in one of the books) can you get any of the monsters (bosses aside) in any of the games or do you have to get all of Infection's before moving onto Mutation? What level should you be to fight the Parasite Dragon?
It's interesting that Comartemis mentions Wavemasters being essential in the higher level fields. I was just going to say that it seems that Wavemasters are really badly implemented in the .hack games. Here are some of the reasons as they come to mind:[list]
[*] Because you can't control the distance your party members are from the enemies, it's a common thing for the Wavemaster to be as much in the thick of the fighting as a Heavy Blade.
[*] Because they almost always depend on using the right element, you often have to give them worse armour than they could be wearing in order to give them the right spell.
[*] When it comes to Physical Immune enemies, you can just have non-Wavemasters with spells (seems unavoidable actually) or use Scrolls.
[*] If you're fighting tough enemies the Wavemaster is basically going to die if they start physically attacking him/her. If the enemies are weak it doesn't matter if there's a Wavemaster there or not so you may as well take a warrior-type.
[*] As far as I've seen, healing magic does a set amount of HP recovery. That means that it's just as effective in the hands of Piros as it is in the hands of Mistral or Elk. Actually, it's probably better in the hands of a warrior because they're tougher and you don't want your healer to keep dying.
[*] Some really good spells seem to appear on heavy armour or other non-Wavemaster equipment rather than on something the Wavemasters can use. For example, the heavy armour that has HP Regen and MP Regen on it.
[*] Taking all of the above into account, their dependence of MP is just another weakness that doesn't have many strengths to offset it.[/list:u]
I'm certainly open to the idea that Wavemasters become useful towards the end of the series but at the moment their presence seems to be due to the "need" to have a magic class in an RPG rather than any actual gameplay based reason since they don't seem to fulfil a particular role that well in battle (or even out of it, e.g. teleportation spells are often something mages have in MMOs which makes them useful even out of battle but of course in .hack that would be pointless since it's not a huge, sprawling, persistent world but a collection of unlinked fields that can be returned from with a menu command).
It's interesting that Comartemis mentions Wavemasters being essential in the higher level fields. I was just going to say that it seems that Wavemasters are really badly implemented in the .hack games. Here are some of the reasons as they come to mind:[list]
[*] Because you can't control the distance your party members are from the enemies, it's a common thing for the Wavemaster to be as much in the thick of the fighting as a Heavy Blade.
[*] Because they almost always depend on using the right element, you often have to give them worse armour than they could be wearing in order to give them the right spell.
[*] When it comes to Physical Immune enemies, you can just have non-Wavemasters with spells (seems unavoidable actually) or use Scrolls.
[*] If you're fighting tough enemies the Wavemaster is basically going to die if they start physically attacking him/her. If the enemies are weak it doesn't matter if there's a Wavemaster there or not so you may as well take a warrior-type.
[*] As far as I've seen, healing magic does a set amount of HP recovery. That means that it's just as effective in the hands of Piros as it is in the hands of Mistral or Elk. Actually, it's probably better in the hands of a warrior because they're tougher and you don't want your healer to keep dying.
[*] Some really good spells seem to appear on heavy armour or other non-Wavemaster equipment rather than on something the Wavemasters can use. For example, the heavy armour that has HP Regen and MP Regen on it.
[*] Taking all of the above into account, their dependence of MP is just another weakness that doesn't have many strengths to offset it.[/list:u]
I'm certainly open to the idea that Wavemasters become useful towards the end of the series but at the moment their presence seems to be due to the "need" to have a magic class in an RPG rather than any actual gameplay based reason since they don't seem to fulfil a particular role that well in battle (or even out of it, e.g. teleportation spells are often something mages have in MMOs which makes them useful even out of battle but of course in .hack that would be pointless since it's not a huge, sprawling, persistent world but a collection of unlinked fields that can be returned from with a menu command).
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[list]
[*] Because they almost always depend on using the right element, you often have to give them worse armour than they could be wearing in order to give them the right spell. /list]
Yes, but this applies to everyone, not just wavemasters.
[list]
[*] When it comes to Physical Immune enemies, you can just have non-Wavemasters with spells (seems unavoidable actually) or use Scrolls.[/list:u]
Likely you'll equip your characters with several element aligned weapons. By the fourth disk, all of my characters were carrying 3 different weapons that covers the widest variety of elements, then I switch in and out. You will, however, want everyone to have a healing spell. I didn't pay as much attention to armor as I did to weapons.
[list]
[*] As far as I've seen, healing magic does a set amount of HP recovery. That means that it's just as effective in the hands of Piros as it is in the hands of Mistral or Elk. Actually, it's probably better in the hands of a warrior because they're tougher and you don't want your healer to keep dying.
[*] Some really good spells seem to appear on heavy armour or other non-Wavemaster equipment rather than on something the Wavemasters can use. For example, the heavy armour that has HP Regen and MP Regen on it.
[*] Taking all of the above into account, their dependence of MP is just another weakness that doesn't have many strengths to offset it.[/list:u]
While non-wavemaster can cast a curative spell, a wavemaster can cast a curative spell, rest a bit, then cast it again faster. At later levels, you'll see wavemasters regaining MP at a rate so high they can practically rain spells for the entire battle, rest a bit, then dive in to the next battle. In comparison, the scrolls are a resource that doesn't replenish itself. Instead of buying scrolls, I bought potions that restored MP (since said potions could also fuel offensive spells).
(slightly OT: the scrolls in .hack are truly crappy)
That being said, because there is no time limit to the missions (except for speed runs), there's nothing preventing non-wavemasters to just loaf around the dungeons while regaining MP, then just heal the party before going out to the next gate/room. Wavemasters just make the process quicker.
I'm certainly open to the idea that Wavemasters become useful towards the end of the series but at the moment their presence seems to be due to the "need" to have a magic class in an RPG rather than any actual gameplay based reason since they don't seem to fulfil a particular role that well in battle (or even out of it, e.g. teleportation spells are often something mages have in MMOs which makes them useful even out of battle but of course in .hack that would be pointless since it's not a huge, sprawling, persistent world but a collection of unlinked fields that can be returned from with a menu command).
Wavemasters in .hack feel like first ed AD&D magic-users and clerics. Extremely weak and borderline useless on the first levels, then on the later ones become like artilley pieces -- still weak but can lob offensive spells and healing spells.
Its also difficult to accurately represent wavemasters in the game. In the anime, BT was capable of parting mists and illusions around the Hule Cathedral. Such abilities would perpetuate the storyline but not combat.
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Teclo wrote...
A few questions: With the monster list (in one of the books) can you get any of the monsters (bosses aside) in any of the games or do you have to get all of Infection's before moving onto Mutation? What level should you be to fight the Parasite Dragon?You can fight all Vol. 1 monsters in the following Volumes. Lv. 35 is about where I feel you should be able to be the Parasite Dragon, of course, you can always fight it in Vol. 2. Oh yeah, you should probably Data Drain it when you can.
Now about your points (not in any particular order):[list]
[*]I agree with fatman when he said that everyone needs a healing spell. Even 2 characters with healing abilities just won't cut it. Therefore, the idea of set amount of HP recovery being a determining factor in deciding to use a Wavemaster is irrelevant. Actually, the last healing spell doesn't restore a set amount of HP.
[*]Your Wavemaster will more or less stay in place once engaged in combat. Open a Magic Portal from as far away as possible, and have your Wavemaster cast a spell. Now, I can't remember the list of commands from memory, but as long as the Wavemaster is in Spells Only mode, he/she should stand in place after the first cast. (I seem to remember being able to leave the Wavemaster a little back from my party.)
[*]You could use non-Wavemasters to fight Phys. Immune enemies, but Wavemasters have far higher Mag. Attack. The damage dealt is significantly different. Wavemasters can also constantly cast spells, which keep an enemy in place, for much longer.
[*]To be honest, I doubt I have ever seen a Wavemaster physical attack an enemy. In fact, I believe it is impossible for a Wavemaster to use a physical attack of any kind. This also goes back to my first point. Also, a Wavemaster's MP is far higher than the MP of other classes. I think Twin Blades have the 2nd highest MP. BTW, all character classes greatly rely on their MP. Skills and spells finish off the enemies far faster than a character's measly standard combo will.
[*]Fighting any enemy requires using the right element. I suppose this gets more true as the game progresses though.
[*]I suppose your point about spells on heavy armor is true, but armor doesn't amount to much statistically, weapons are far more important. Focus on the spells of the armor rather than its stats, until the level gap gets pretty large. Also, spells like HP and SP Regen are like stat increasing spells. They only help slightly. SP Regen is really only useful in restoring SP ever so slightly faster than normal. I dare say the speed increase of Ap Do is more effective than that.
[*]Actually, by the end of the game, you can use just about anyone. Wavemasters are still very helpful against Phys. Immune enemies, but just about any character combination will do.
[/list:u]
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To be honest, I doubt I have ever seen a Wavemaster physical attack an enemy.
I once saw Elk smack an enemy with his staff and do about 10 damage or so against an enemy of approximately equal level. I think that might've been in Outbreak or Quarantine, but I'm not sure. I know I only ever saw him do it once, maybe twice in the whole quartet, so either I'm not paying very good attention or the AI is programmed to engage in physical combat only as a last resort or when ordered to.
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Well having read your replies, what you say makes perfect sense in theory but it's just that in practice the game actually seems harder with a Wavemaster in the party. This is firstly because "black magic" spells don't seem to be used that often, which is of course the Wavemasters speciality since they go off his/her magic attack. If an enemy is weak to an element you can just attack them with a physical attack that uses that element or just ignore the weakness and hit them normally, the battle only lasting a few hits more.
The other thing that seems to hold Wavemasters back is the actual battle system of the game. Generally, warrior-types can get by with basic attacks and the occasional La Repth. Wavemasters are only useful when they're casting spells which means you have to select the Magic! command every time you start battle (which also means your warriors will try and use magic) or you have to manually select the spell and target for them every time. It mind sound like a trifling thing but it soon starts to grate after a while, especially when you realise you could just be using warriors and not having to go into the menu when you fight at all.
Some other miscellaneous points...
MP regen
It's true that Wavemasters have a better MP regeneration rate but since warriors don't usually need to use techniques, Wavemasters are still slower to use than warriors. I can run around non-stop with BlackRose and Gardenia but with Mistral or Elk you have to wait for their MP to come back every so often.
Getting stuck in
As for the thing about Wavemasters physically hitting enemies: it happens all the time to me. Sure, if you press Square and choose Magic! every battle then all the people, warriors included, will only use magic but if you leave them to their own devices they'll just try to fight and probably get killed.
One-sided defence
Wavemasters are only really good at defending against magic attacks. Of course, warriors are generally only good at defending against physical attacks but they have a lot of HP so even when they do get blasted by a powerful spell, they should be OK. On the other hand, Wavemasters have a low maximum HP so if they get hit a few times by a warrior-type enemy, they'll probably be dead or in a critical state.
Having to change armour for the right spells
As for the point about "Wavemasters have to change their items a lot and will often be wearing sub-par armour just to get a certain spell" to which the reply was "yes but then so does everyone", I would say that that's technically true but since, as I mentioned, warriors can get by with just basic attacks they don't really need to equip specific armour or weapons. Wavemasters, on the other hand, are only relevant to the battle if they have the correct skills.
VS Bosses
I've noticed that they also seem to be quite useless against bosses; the enemies that really test the mettle of your party. I've read a few guides for .hack//Infection and as far as I can remember Wavemasters were never recommended in any of the parties to be used against bosses. The ultimate boss is even magic immune.
I don't want to sound like I've got nothing to say other than how bad Wavemasters are but it's just something I was thinking about the other day so I was surprised to see Comartemis saying they're good. As I said, I remain open minded that they may become useful later in the series but at the moment they seem sort of tacked on just to complete the traditional fantasy class selection.
The other thing that seems to hold Wavemasters back is the actual battle system of the game. Generally, warrior-types can get by with basic attacks and the occasional La Repth. Wavemasters are only useful when they're casting spells which means you have to select the Magic! command every time you start battle (which also means your warriors will try and use magic) or you have to manually select the spell and target for them every time. It mind sound like a trifling thing but it soon starts to grate after a while, especially when you realise you could just be using warriors and not having to go into the menu when you fight at all.
Some other miscellaneous points...
MP regen
It's true that Wavemasters have a better MP regeneration rate but since warriors don't usually need to use techniques, Wavemasters are still slower to use than warriors. I can run around non-stop with BlackRose and Gardenia but with Mistral or Elk you have to wait for their MP to come back every so often.
Getting stuck in
As for the thing about Wavemasters physically hitting enemies: it happens all the time to me. Sure, if you press Square and choose Magic! every battle then all the people, warriors included, will only use magic but if you leave them to their own devices they'll just try to fight and probably get killed.
One-sided defence
Wavemasters are only really good at defending against magic attacks. Of course, warriors are generally only good at defending against physical attacks but they have a lot of HP so even when they do get blasted by a powerful spell, they should be OK. On the other hand, Wavemasters have a low maximum HP so if they get hit a few times by a warrior-type enemy, they'll probably be dead or in a critical state.
Having to change armour for the right spells
As for the point about "Wavemasters have to change their items a lot and will often be wearing sub-par armour just to get a certain spell" to which the reply was "yes but then so does everyone", I would say that that's technically true but since, as I mentioned, warriors can get by with just basic attacks they don't really need to equip specific armour or weapons. Wavemasters, on the other hand, are only relevant to the battle if they have the correct skills.
VS Bosses
I've noticed that they also seem to be quite useless against bosses; the enemies that really test the mettle of your party. I've read a few guides for .hack//Infection and as far as I can remember Wavemasters were never recommended in any of the parties to be used against bosses. The ultimate boss is even magic immune.
I don't want to sound like I've got nothing to say other than how bad Wavemasters are but it's just something I was thinking about the other day so I was surprised to see Comartemis saying they're good. As I said, I remain open minded that they may become useful later in the series but at the moment they seem sort of tacked on just to complete the traditional fantasy class selection.
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It's okay to say you don't like Wavemasters if that's the case. Anyway, it's seems to be more of a difference in opinion caused by our different styles of play. By the middle of Mutation, I completely micromanaged my entire party via individual commands for the rest of the game. Of course, I tend to play RPGs where micromanaging stuff is a necessity, so I'm used to going through menus quickly and repeatedly.
Well, I don't think I have anything left to say about Wavemasters.
Well, I don't think I have anything left to say about Wavemasters.
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Well I usually play RPGs with lots of micromanagement and/or a heavily menu-based battle system, such as Shin Megami Tensei 3, Persona 3, Dragon Quest, Romancing Saga 3 and Lufia II. The level of customisation in Persona 3 and SMT 3 (essentially the same series) is staggering as you'll know if you've played either of them (if not, I recommend them - Persona 3 has a more welcoming atmosphere and more forgiving gameplay - though it still has the thing that if the hero dies, which he will do if you're not careful since loads of enemies cast instant death spells, it's an instant game over).
What I would say is that when an RPG is of a more action-oriented nature, it makes sense to be able to map moves and spells to buttons such as in the "Tales of..." series by Namco. You can have 4 moves mapped to buttons and 4 other moves (either your own or your party members') mapped as shortcuts to the right analogue stick (up, down, left and right). It wouldn't be so bad in .hack if the 4 possible strategy settings all involve never using skills or offensive magic. Would it really hurt to have a setting for them to use their skills and magic on enemies that are weak against them? I mean, these are meant to be other humans players in The World - not unthinking drones that require Kite's commands in order to function. Other games in which your party are controlled by AI (again, the "Tales of..." series, Persona 3 and - if you set it that way - Dragon Quest VIII) have it so your party members can be told to use magic to varying degrees and use it intelligently (though in Tales of the Abyss and Persona 3 you need to Scan the enemy first or they might use spells that are inappropriate for that enemy).
Anyway, all this negative commentary! I think criticism just comes more naturally to me. If I heard someone saying the .hack games were crap, I'd switch tact and start defending them, rest assured. I'm currently waiting to start .hack//Mutation but the disc is at my friend's house. I can't wait to start it - after I defeated the Parasite Dragon yesterday I though "Yes! Now I'll move on to Mutation" before realising that I'd left the disc there. Luckily I've bought the first AI Buster novel so I read that instead.
One of the things I like most about the .hack franchise is all the interplay between the different media. For example, quite early on in AI Buster Albireo sees a Heavy Axe user complaining to a man that the "healing potion" he sold him was nothing more than holy water or something like that. It seems likely that the person that's been sold a different potion from what he was told it was is none other than Piros (since this is what happens in his quest in Infection). Then even more obvious things seem cool, like seeing Orca and Balmung come to the door of Albireo's home. I also watched .hack//GIFT the other day which was pretty funny at times. There were quite a lot of jokes on Bear/Orca, Elk/Tsukasa and BlackRose/Mimiru basically being the same characters with only subtle variations at best.
What I would say is that when an RPG is of a more action-oriented nature, it makes sense to be able to map moves and spells to buttons such as in the "Tales of..." series by Namco. You can have 4 moves mapped to buttons and 4 other moves (either your own or your party members') mapped as shortcuts to the right analogue stick (up, down, left and right). It wouldn't be so bad in .hack if the 4 possible strategy settings all involve never using skills or offensive magic. Would it really hurt to have a setting for them to use their skills and magic on enemies that are weak against them? I mean, these are meant to be other humans players in The World - not unthinking drones that require Kite's commands in order to function. Other games in which your party are controlled by AI (again, the "Tales of..." series, Persona 3 and - if you set it that way - Dragon Quest VIII) have it so your party members can be told to use magic to varying degrees and use it intelligently (though in Tales of the Abyss and Persona 3 you need to Scan the enemy first or they might use spells that are inappropriate for that enemy).
Anyway, all this negative commentary! I think criticism just comes more naturally to me. If I heard someone saying the .hack games were crap, I'd switch tact and start defending them, rest assured. I'm currently waiting to start .hack//Mutation but the disc is at my friend's house. I can't wait to start it - after I defeated the Parasite Dragon yesterday I though "Yes! Now I'll move on to Mutation" before realising that I'd left the disc there. Luckily I've bought the first AI Buster novel so I read that instead.
One of the things I like most about the .hack franchise is all the interplay between the different media. For example, quite early on in AI Buster Albireo sees a Heavy Axe user complaining to a man that the "healing potion" he sold him was nothing more than holy water or something like that. It seems likely that the person that's been sold a different potion from what he was told it was is none other than Piros (since this is what happens in his quest in Infection). Then even more obvious things seem cool, like seeing Orca and Balmung come to the door of Albireo's home. I also watched .hack//GIFT the other day which was pretty funny at times. There were quite a lot of jokes on Bear/Orca, Elk/Tsukasa and BlackRose/Mimiru basically being the same characters with only subtle variations at best.
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I have not had the honor of playing P3, however, I have played DDS1. So I know what you mean. Yeah, I agree, as an action RPG .hack needed some quick-command inputs for spells or strategies. Anyway, it's strange because I played .hack before I played my other micromanagement games like Disgaea and Phantom Brave. in fact, I got .hack//I&M shortly after Mutation was released.
For me, .hack//GIFT is the greatest parody I have ever witnessed. Watching Sign three times over and playing through all four games and then watching Gift was an unparalleled experience for me. Characters with similar designs fighting each other, Silver Knight getting pummeled, Balmung going crazy, Piros' lines, and the credit sequence ... ah, the lovely credit sequence.
For me, .hack//GIFT is the greatest parody I have ever witnessed. Watching Sign three times over and playing through all four games and then watching Gift was an unparalleled experience for me. Characters with similar designs fighting each other, Silver Knight getting pummeled, Balmung going crazy, Piros' lines, and the credit sequence ... ah, the lovely credit sequence.
