That's it. No more mister nice America!

Doesn't surprise me, he's been crazy to begin with, I thought the "elections" would get rid of this crazy man but I forgot they are fixed over there.

THE GOVERNMENT IS LYING ABOUT 9/11

That was a completely different incident.

I'd have to agree.

9/11 was blown far out of proportion. I mean the results are real, and of course as a nation we wanted someone to pay for those atrocities, but to use it as a political front on some made up "War on Terror" is just ridiculous. The United States is by far the most aggressive and warmongering country out there, and we get pissed when someone dares think something different.

As if how dare you view a situation different than the United States because we know what is best for the world and if you aren't with us then you are either our enemy or are too weak to make a difference in world affairs.

You know, you don't have to create this false dichotomy where if it can't be good the other choice is evil. I choose the, "America is full of shit, but at least some of us are trying to do something about it" stance. Although, I'm not part of those doing something about it. :|

Indeed. I'm not saying that 9/11 was a good thing, but just because it happened in America, it's suddenly a "terrible tragedy", like if it were some kind of attempt to exterminate mankind. Fuck that. I mean, how many died in those attacks? Think it was around 3000 people.

Now lets see, counting only the Iraqi war that was a direct response to the 9/11 attacks and the "war on terrorism", how many people have died? It's at least about a 100.000 civilians, with about 4 millions of refugees. Remember, this is just counting people that did not take up arms against America and that were killed by US troops. Damn, who's the terrorist?

Speaking from a local perspective, I'd certainly say that the fear culture spawned from 9/11 is disproportionate to the actual threat we face, and the actions taken. I don't think the UK public have ever been particularly fearful - naturally having not experienced the same event, but also being generally more Liberal - but we're also far more (harmfully) permissive of our government, and dare I say the Parliamentary system doesn't have the same safeguards as the three US houses. The implications of 9/11 and 7/7 in the UK have been massive infringements on civil liberties ('stop and search', 28 day detention without trial, ID cards, national database of everyone detained by police regardless of guilt/implication and age), pushed through with reassurances of the good intentions of government in their application. There really is no party with which I mostly agree any more.

And yes, that's not to mention the slant in public opinion of wars and the people involved in them, if not the media over here. There is large scale cynicism and damning attacks from the right wing over our intentions and plans in Afghanistan, left wing coverage of those human effects, massive public anger over casualties there, and still a huge furore over the circumstances of the Iraq war (a lot of people want Blair imprisoned), but everything boils down to self-interest; people only vaguely tolerate the Afghan war because the Labour government says it's protecting us, and the people chorus "when can we leave". Not all of the media focus is on the injustices against us, but most of the public opinion is.

Let me rephrase my answer, then. "I know we're nowhere near as good as we say we are, but I don't think we're nearly as bad as you say we are either."

I'm neutral at best in regards to my country; I grew up listening to George Carlin constantly rip holes in the whole "America is the greatest country in the world!" propaganda routine. We have plenty of issues at all levels of our society, make no mistake, but I haven't lost so much faith in the government that I'd believe them capable of bombing their own citizens for an excuse to invade another country. That's something I'd expect -- maybe -- from China or North Korea.


Hey now, I'll admit we fucked up big time when we let Bush invade Iraq but we thought we had perfectly valid reasons for it (Bush didn't exactly sell us the idea by saying "Hey, let's go loot Saddam's oil fields!", you know...). The American public thought we were going to war to stop Saddam from nuking us and to save the Iraqi people from Saddam's regime. Both of these were perfectly valid reasons, they just happened to be based on the mountain of lies Bush fed us. If we were terrorists, we would've invaded just for the evulz, and all those deaths would have been deliberate instead of collateral damage. We weren't aiming for civilians, Bin Laden and his cronies were.

It's going to bother me until my dying day that Bush didn't hang right next to Saddam for leading us into a war on false pretenses and getting all those civilians killed. Presidents have been impeached for lying about far less than Bush did (Clinton's blowjob didn't kill anyone last time I checked); the fact that he got away with it scot-free is one of the biggest injustices in the modern world.

...okay, enough seriousness. I came up with the perfect way to get rid of all those Islamic extremists fighting over Israeli turf (or maybe I heard it from someone else.... eh, whatever); we dig the whole chunk of ground out of the Earth, strap a rocket booster to it, and launch it into space at a few fractions of the speed of light. If those religious nutcases want to fight and kill each other over a useless chunk of desert so badly, they can go and chase it!

That's a lovely example of "God moves in mysterious ways." Just because the President says so shouldn't mean we should blindly believe him. There were a lot of doubters from the beginning. I never once believed that Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and never supported the war for an instant. Don't get me wrong, I hate Bush, but it isn't fair to blame him for it all. As a country we fucked up big time, and we should be big enough to own up to it, but no. As a whole, we continue to delude ourselves into thinking we did the right thing, and that we are continuing to do the right thing.

We never had business in Iraq and we still do not to this day. Now Israel is the next big thing. It is not our concern. Let the Israelis and Palestinians kill each other for all I care. I may be Atheist, but I'd like to think that even if I was religious I wouldn't want anyone to have to step into protect some thousands year old ancient land that isn't worth shit.

You see now why the rest of the world think you're idiots? The entire world knew what was actually happening, how come You didn't? Whatever you thought, one might think that you would like to see some evidence before you go "yippiekayey mofo" outside your own countries border. And even if you had something anywhere close to evidence, you do not just go invading another country, especially without the approval of the UN! I mean... God, I can't even put this into words. It's a fucking wonder that the rest of the world haven't decided to kick you out yet, but I guess that would result in a "war on the entire terrorist world except USA".

Also, who the hell gave you the right to "save" the Iraqi people? It is that "we're so great that we consider ourself the fucking World Police" that made people hate you from the very beginning.

I quote: "Saddam Hussein was a cruel man and a dictator. Before the "liberation" of Iraq there was one of him. Now there are more than fifty".



And fuck me, you make yourself look even more stupid. The "Islamic extremists", or the Palestinians has lived in Israel for thousands of years, and then suddenly fucking USA tries to tell them "No, the Jews gonna live her cuz' they're too conceited to live anywhere else" and aids them, a people that no longer have any right to that land, to bomb the shit out of every Muslim nation nearby. You ain't got any fucking right to even be in Israel. Let them take care of themselves, since your not aiding the ones in need of help anyway.

God dammit.

I didn't mean to imply that the American public doesn't share responsibility for Bush's actions; quite the opposite actually. The fact that we had such blind faith in our president right after getting over the Clinton scandal is just another example of that old yarn about how you can measure the intelligence of a crowd by dividing their average IQ by their numbers.


I suggest you get that stick surgically removed from your ass Ethil, that was a joke.

What was the joke; the method of removing them, or the fact that you actually think of removing them?

Aw, you had me until that. To be perfectly polite the United Nations can go fuck themselves. You would have thought the world would have learned with the League of Nations what a horrible idea a united government body was, but no it sounds so peacekeeping, so loving that it has to work!

The United Nations is weak, divided and utterly useless. I do agree with the problem of ignoring them though. The United States is the biggest funder of the United Nations and we implore other countries to take an active stance in it's body, but we conveniently ignore them when the United Nations has a view different from the view the United States holds. Hypocrisy much?

I think you just agreed with me; the problem with the UN is not the UN itself, it is the US. And the objective of the UN is not too keep and fight for world peace, it is to aid those in trouble during war, natural disasters etc. Ofc it does not go too well all the time, but might it have something to do with some nations doing w/e hell they want? And without the UN things would have been worse, or at least in some cases =/

I agree though, the UN acts stupid pretty often as well -_- Everyone wants their piece of the cake, and they want the others pieces as well.

Oh yeah suppose so. You didn't really clarify on whether or not you supported the UN or not. I don't support them, but I am even less supportive of a country that pretends to vest so much stock in them only to completely ignore them when it is opportune.

The United Nations has never been functional. I won't blame the attitude of the United States on that, it is a poor effort. It looks good on paper, but the United Nations didn't, doesn't and never will work. Countries can demonstrate their own humanitarianism without having some bullshit fake body of national representatives piss and moan every time something major happens in the world.

The method, obviously. I've studied enough history to know that the Palestinians have very legitimate reasons to hate Israel (that apartheid wall they put up just for starters), but I'm just sick of the whole conflict in general and I don't care who's in the right anymore. Hence the launching it into space joke, which I just realized I butchered by stating "Islamic extremists" specifically. The idea is that both sides, not just the Palestinians, go chasing after their precious holy ground so the rest of us can finally get some peace and quiet.

Seriously, If I had a time machine, I'd jump back to the 40's and put a bullet in the head of whoever decided to approve the idea of sticking a Jewish state on ground that is sacred to another religion. It's like making a Hindu nation and sticking it right in the middle of the Vatican; WHOSE BRIGHT IDEA WAS THAT?! (Yes, I know, America, but which individual idiot approved that idea?)

I really stopped caring about these things a few years ago; Even if you figure out what is really going on, and that we are all getting fucked, what can I do, what can you do? It is futile

Last I remember, theres been ideas going around that its motivated by a pipeline that goes through the area. And all of that was just orchestrated to justify taking control of the unsecured sections of it legally. Got nothing to do about what people think at all. If its true who knows, as i said, even if it was what difference does it make.

I guess a question is, how else can/will we do what we do if not through these means...

Only if you insist on going it alone. Humans have always been at their strongest when they worked together. Look at all the great revolutions in history and tell me if you see any that were accomplished by one man acting by himself. MLK Jr. didn't win the war for civil rights in America by himself, Hitler didn't rise to power unassisted, and Gandhi wouldn't have accomplished anything if he'd been the only one resisting the British. Whether for good or evil, these people did great things because they were supported by others.

If you discover that you are being screwed over by the government or whoever, it is very likely that others are also being screwed over. Join together with them and fight, and once you have begun, do not stop until you have set right what is wrong with the world. Alone you will accomplish nothing, but together we can shake the Earth to it's foundations.

Palestine was a part of Serbia, who lost WWII.
Have you ever heard "history is written by the winners"? This is a great example.
The allied nations hadn't fulfilled a (pre-WWI) promise to give The Jewish People a homeland, and after the Holocaust, these nations flat needed a place to put everybody.
The Jews asked for Israel, and got half of what they have now.

The ongoing war is based on Palestinians seeing themselves as a tribe, rather than a country, and not having a say in the division. The Jews moved in suddenly, taking large amounts of land, jobs, and were now governing the place. Instant resentment, not even counting wars from the last three millennia(See: Irish immigration in America).

Being one of those roped into Israel's creation, the Allied Nations were forced to back Israel in it's defence--even when Israel began pushing it's borders out (to avoid a hypocritical reputation).

The entire situation is neither right nor wrong, it's war. Plain and simple.

(On a side note, the Palestinians originally pushed the Hebrews out of the holy land. It was LONG LONG AGO, but both races are really old--it's significant to some)

Don't forget that Jesus was black.



Just throwing this out there; Considering the rampant corruption and general anti-anything America thinks is even a remotely good idea. I would as President,

Kick the United Nations out of the United States. (let them go set up shop in Europe or whatever.)
--Without America's funding and the fact that the U.S. is typically the backbone when it comes to enforcing resolutions the organization will crumble. They can't even get the security council to agree on sanctions against Iran for enriching Uranium when they've been told to stop. Not to mention Food for Oil scandal, the repeated abuse of West African refugees, that the "Universal Declaration of Human rights" actually has language in it saying that the rights only exist it they don't get in the U.N.'s way (Don't believe me? Article 29(3)). The list goes on.

Use the old building for a new global system called the League of Liberty which will be loosely modeled after the U.N.
--All member states must adopt a bill of rights for their citizens modeled after the U.S. bill of rights (I.e. freedom of speech, religion, press, ownership of weapons for private, common and national defense, protections against illegal searches and seizures,etc) this would go on top of any rights or protections the citizens already have.

Also membership is restricted to nations whose governments are elected by the people in free and open elections.

In other words "Fuck the U.N."

As far as 9/11 and all that goes. It's blown slightly out of proportion but it was still the largest terrorist attack on the United States in it's history. They killed thousands of innocent Americans and Canadians. We should have bombed Afghanistan to a time before the stone age they currently reside in. Burn the country to the ground and salt the ashes (that's the warning). The idea of using murder and violence to force people to give up their lifestyle and join some draconic, homophobic, racist and sexist fundamentalist system is unacceptable.

As time goes by my inner skeptic has begun to think that the bush administration either badly dropped the ball and let it happen (dismissing the information's credibility) or Bush's religious devotion lead him to allow the attacks to happen to galvanize "God's Chosen people" to attack Muslims. I'm not sold on either idea as being labeled a 9/11 truther is a pretty quick way to lose all credibility for the rest of your life. Alas, I am still skeptical.

The war in Iraq is a case of bad information all around. Saddam claimed he had W.M.D.'s even to the point that France and other countries (like Iran) were certain of it. Also remember that large stockpiles of W.M.D's were found and destroyed during the first gulf war. That lends credibility to Saddams claims. I think the entire war is a mix bag. We saved some Kurds from genocide, we killed a dictator, his sadistic, pedophile sons, brought down an administration of murderers and gave the people the ability to enjoy democracy (albeit a fragile one).