"Wrong" or "Right"?

So,earlier today, I got into a conversation (don't ask how...) with a friend about a specific concept of relationships. Honestly, we debated and discussed about it endlessly till we had to part ways. However, even now my mind still lingers on the idea, and the arguments brought forth from my friend, and it's not like the idea itself hasn't been on my mind either.

So, here's some food for thought, and today's topic of discussion; Is it "wrong" or "right" (notice that I have both in quotations...) for a women to take the lead in a relationship, mostly on a physical/sexual/romantic level? Why is/isn't OK? And if it is/isn't OK, how do you feel the male half should react or respond?

To get an idea about what I'm talking about, if you've watched Muv-Luv Alternative: Total Eclipse, the type of women that would be an example would be Lt. Cui, though the levels of... aggressive-ness?... yeah, we'll use that... may vary, that should give you a good or general idea of the type of women we're talking about.

So, my fellow Fakku-ers, what do you think?

I'll put in my two cents after I've seen some responses. [size=1]And hopefully I haven't fucked up the questions being given...[/h]

Why would it be wrong at all? Gender guidelines are old fashioned and useless. If it isn't hurting anyone else, a person should act in whatever way they feel suits them best. If you dislike someone acting a certain way in a romantic relationship, then don't be romantically involved with them. Simple. It doesn't mean that they are inherently "wrong" or "right" for acting that way. If they're not acting in an abusive manner, but rather just being headstrong and displaying more dominant traits... then I don't see the problem. How does it suddenly become "wrong" the moment that the person acting this way is revealed to be a female? That makes no sense.

It's interesting, because the person in question had the exact opposite opinion, and she too was female. It was me holding the same opinion you did, which was interesting to say the least.

Anyways, her argument was that for that very reason, men have been taking the back seat to things, and have, for lack of a better word, forgotten how to actually romance a women, and also that men have become far more submissive then they should, or used, to be. When asked, "How is that a bad thing?", she simply stated that it wasn't supposed to be in our nature, and that men were always supposed to take the dominant role (at least eventually or some point), and women the submissive role. As you might have guessed, she was raised on rather... "old fashioned" principles.

It's interesting to see how different the opinions are of people on the subject, with different backgrounds and principles. I actually asked my brother earlier, not long after posting this, and funny enough, he had a similar opinion as my friend did, if a bit more.... vulgar, and we were raised similarly. Kinda makes your opinion (or argument in general) feel, for lack of a better word, pointless, when your opinion seems to be just your opinion, if that makes sense.

Ugh... I feel like all of this is some kind of cycle: before, men always initiated, but now, with the "old-fashioned" days behind us, equality has made men "weaker", as your friend says. I swear, if some time in the future, men become "dominant" again, I'm calling it, lol.

Anyway, I'm with both of you, really. I don't believe there is, or even should be, a "right" or "wrong" way for a women to act in a relationship. Staying in the old-fashioned ways just leads to confusion: the girl expects the guy to ask her out, with all the (overly) subtle hints she dropped. Of course, it became so subtle, the guy's going to think the girl has no actual interest. Both parties lose out, simply because one's not sure, and the other has their mind in the fucking Dark Ages.

Personally, though I would prefer to be the more dominant one in the relationship, I would not mind at all if the girl made the first move sometimes, especially when I'm being dense, lol. I don't want her to be so backward-behaving and timid, of course; where's the fun in dominating the weak? XD

*ahem*

I hope that last part didn't offend anyone... just trying to make light of the whole thing. ._.

Well, I don't think it is wrong or right for a woman to take the lead in a relationship on a physical/sexual/or romantic level. It is ok because I think that whether it is the man or the woman who takes the lead shouldn't matter, gender roles be damned, what is most important is that they love each other. They were stupid anyway(gender roles).

Hmm as for how I think the male half should respond. I can only speak for myself but I'd be totally OK with it and maybe even prefer it. It's probably for the best, I am a bit too shy for my liking and a girl who is forward/aggressive is probably better than having two shy people deal with each other due to lack of communication lol. And possibly good for me to be more adventurous, I believe the saying is "Opposites Attract". Although that isn't to say I won't work at a relationship, I'd work my brains out.

On the first point, I agree. Previous ways of thinking just don't work well anymore, and both parties are losing out because of it, all because people want to keep things the "way they're supposed to be". I find it sort of silly, and it's always bothered me.

As for me, I used to think that I was the dominant type, but after some soul-searching, I realized those were attributes that I learned. It wasn't a part of my actual personality. Now I prefer to take the more submissive role in a relationship, and prefer a far more aggressive women, but that's the problem. With people still thinking the way they do, it's hard for me to take such a role, and be successful in a relationship when I'm expected to be the dominant figure. Not to say I'm a push-over. If you know me well enough, you would know that isn't the case, and I can be dominant, but it's not the role I choose as far as relationships go.

It's a problem for people like myself, because we always have that thought in the back of our minds, and it can be quite... frustrating, for lack of a better phrase.

And this is a discussion. We all know the last thing you'd want to be is offensive, Art. No worries. :P

@セナリオ: We're on the same boat, brochacho. :P

Hmm... never really thought about it in terms having "learned" how to be dominant. Honestly, I feel like I'm adaptable enough in situations, and any girl I just love being around, I consider interesting enough to date.

I guess I'm probably just talking out of my ass now, considering I'm a virgin in every possible sense (fun fact: not even kissed on the cheek by a girl in my age group). T______T

There's nothing wrong with that, as far as being adaptable and such is concerned. It's a good plus. We're all different, so if it works for you, then so be it.

And no worries, bro. You'll get your time to shine. Just keep at it. ( '__')b

The reason that men are expected to be dominant in nature goes back to the bible age when women were considered property to the point that even our being raped was likened back to defiling another man's property. So, what about that is a good thing? You can think about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah where Abraham, in trying to protect the outsiders, offered up his own virgin daughters to be gang-raped by the angry men of the village rather then give up the male visitors he had known less then a day. So, that's basically our so-called intrinsic value as women. Opinions and such be damned - according to these old-fashioned views we were, in essence, a body and a slave to be done with as our master wished. If that is the so-called nature that she is speaking of, then I'm not at all sure how she can be happily rambling off her opinion when it isn't in her nature to have one at all.

Men were taught to be dominant so that they maintained control. Men have been taught since that day to still maintain control over women by dictating when and how a relationship proceeds from the start to the finish. Also known as traditional "courting": initiating a relationship is a man's responsibility as well as deciding when that relationship becomes a marriage. When he wants to start have sex, or when he wants to start a family... Everything is dictated by the dominant man, because that has been man's responsibility over women since the time of Adam & Eve.

Does she believe in being faithful to only one spouse? If so, that's nice. Men aren't expected to do the same thing, and can traditionally have as many mistresses as they like. However, if a woman is caught in an adulterous affair then she can only expect to be stoned to death or have a similar punishment.

Later on, women's roles might include cooking meals, but a woman chef would be a laughable idea. Nursing is a traditional role, but a doctor? Never! She could teach all she likes, but never dream of becoming a professor. You would watch your brothers go off to universities, but you could only dream of going to a school for up and coming secretaries... only so long as you didn't get pregnant or become too old. What was the point of even having thoughts or dreams back then? We were only useful as long as our goals were limited - never reaching high enough to conflict with a man's.

The fact that women are learning that this is all bullshit, and acting more in according to their desires rather then appeasing to the desires of men is A GOOD THING. We should have more control over our lives whether it is the work place, family, or romance - if we want to see a man, we should ask him. If we have an opinion, we should speak it. We have spent too much time historically under the thumb of men to have our freedom confiscated by our own misguided views of how things should or shouldn't be. Doesn't she realize that she only believes this bullshit, because she has been told that's how things are since she was little by men who wanted to maintain their status quo?

A man who says that a woman should be one way or another isn't a true man, but a coward.

@Dia: I do agree with the statement that women should take a bit more charge and not follow some outdated idea of how each gender should act. If they like somebody why should it be any different on approaching them about it? Why does it always have to be the guy who asks her out/initiates many things? Sure there are some things probably cannot be changed due to society such as the guy paying in full for all meals/date things, otherwise he is a jerk. That probably won't change, and I don't expect it to. However if a girl insisted on paying half I can only think of that as a plus to equality. (+5 to charisma!...more game references, silly me. Charisma is a dump stat).

I know at least for me, if women were taking a more leading role maybe I might actually be noticed more than I see at surface value lol. I am pretty dense when it comes to noticing that somebody might like me. Then again, it could be the opposite where I'm still not noticed at all or people don't have a good opinion of me. I would hope I wouldn't need to change who I am just to appease a larger group and be considered as a person somebody might like. If I had to change I'd pretty much be lying about who I am, and that isn't fun for anybody. I'm already visually bad at lying. But...it is hard to tell without knowing what people think but hopefully I can think positively about this lol.

@Alex: Well...yeaaaah same boat thing. Although maybe it is just me, but at least in anime/manga I cannot stand the Yamato Nadeshiko type, the so called perfect woman who puts family and the guy first and is soft spoken, irritates me so much in Anime/manga. Just...all of my =.=. Hopefully find somebody who speaks her mind and is forward/aggressive although I shall see, I have no clue what the future brings.

Actually, when I was working more regularly my boyfriend and I usually went 50/50 on dates. It usually went like this: if I invited him to something in particular, I paid. If he invited me, he'd pay. We also split it up by, for instance, one person paying for dinner, and the other paying for dessert and/or the movie/event tickets instead. This was always a particularly good solution when one partner was making more money then the other, but the other person still wanted to contribute somehow. We were always really open about money though, so if he was ever broke or vice-versa we'd just say so. It wasn't really a big deal, since the important part was spending time together.

However, you're right about people still being judgmental. Here's something I posted elsewhere about the topic:

"Andrew and I decided that we would treat ourselves to Five Guys today, but pay for ourselves as to keep the cost low. As I finished paying, the cashier asked: 'Are you two dating?' I said yes. 'You should hit him over the head! He should be paying for you!' He obviously thought he was being charming by making such a remark, but the big grin on his face died away when I gave him a disgusted expression.

Isn't it a little strange in this day in age to still be so sexist as to think a woman can't pay for herself? Or that the man who 'lets her' do so isn't fulfilling his duties and is clearly deserving of ridicule? He soon recanted by saying that he understands what it is like to be a poor college student as if that is the only situation in which it is acceptable for an attached woman to pay for herself."

Most people (I'll note female) all agreed that the guy was both out-of-line with his commentary, and a backwards-thinking asshole. So, rest assured! And that was the first comment anyone ever made about it in 3+ years of dating.

@Dia: Well that's good to hear (not quoting and editing the post since I'm lazy to do so at this time of day lol). Some people may think as such but there really is nothing wrong with it. That system of "whoever invites the other" seems to me just fine as long as both parties are fine with inviting each other. That's the whole other topic of "the guy NEEDS to be the one to ask out the girl."

I'm glad that people are starting to fix this old sense of gender roles but I still have a feeling that there will always be that group of people, both men and women(maybe less women now hopefully), who reinforce those tired old stereotypes.

Either way, hopefully this move past this stuff will ultimately lead to more women just breaking the trends. Would make worlds of difference I think.

My preference for forward/assertive women being a huge bias point, change is good news. Maybe I'll get noticed more(or not)/maybe there will be more women of the type I like, although I guess I might be a bit flexible on it since not everybody is the same. But I probably need to step up my "game" whatever that means. Do good? Try to be reliable? Work hard? I dunno, I really just try to act like myself and do good I guess. Not sure how well it is working, doesn't seem to be good so far.

I generally agree, and I made a similar point, minus the general examples you've given, to which she replied along the lines of how that was history, and due to women's rights, they/we could still maintain old fashioned values on a more sensible and sophisticated level in today's society. Well, that's the shortened version. I can't remember her exact word for word, however, I replied that she seemed to be back-pedaling, for lack of a better term, due to the fact that A) It was the same women she was NOT defending that allowed women to have those rights in the first place, and B) Just because we could act more sensible or sophisticated, didn't make it any less wrong, or old fashioned (or any other way you wish to put it), when today we're given freedom from the social norms that held us yesterday.

Like I said, I prefer the far more aggressive women, but it's disappointing to see that they still hold these old fashioned and dated values and thoughts in today's society by what seems like a vast majority. Maybe it's just where I live. I need to move to a more open-minded area or something.

Personally, I am aggressive when it comes to expressing my feelings and depending on the man I will out right take charge. However, sexually I prefer to be dominated. So depending on the situations I will either take charge or let someone else.

I see no reason why a woman shouldn’t try to initiate a date or some kind of contact. If they are interested they should make it known. I don’t believe that men should be putting in all the work either. Things should be balanced nicely because a relationship (usually) is that of two people. To state it nicely if two people don’t believe in that balance or are not okay with one-sided dominance than they should not be pursuing a relationship anyways if there is not some kind of compromise.

Do I think it is okay for a woman to lead a relationship? Yes. Do I think it is right? Why shouldn’t it be? Men can react however they want as long as it does not lead to violence. I would prefer it to be seen with an open mind, but in my state that option is less likely to happen.

Trying to categorize if a woman taking the lead is “right” or “wrong” is dependent on how people were raised or how over time they learn to view things.

It's neither, if a woman wants to make a move for a man, that should be encouraged and embraced and heck it's natural.
But at the same time, I'm going to disagree with Dia, as I usually do, since she thinks A: It's some crusade and B: Uses hyperbole statements and often exaggerated historical context under the guise of point "A" to make it look far more outlandish than it really is.

First, let's start off what's historically expected of a male:
http://www.washingtonlife.com/2010/06/04/dating-scene-are-there-any-traditional-men-left/ Turns out there are some who'd like a man to take those responsibilities after all. I can't imagine they all want men to take that role out of some teachings of the past.

http://family.jrank.org/pages/345/Dating.html This article also does a good job of pointing out that some traditional values are alive, even as people profess to rejecting them out in public.

Were there some awful times in the past? Without a doubt. I also feel as though media and other things have a factor in exaggerating, if ever so slightly about how terrible things were. If they were so terrible, why do people want to maintain things on even a semi-conscious level?

And of course, my opinions are well known about the value of a woman, while there were many men who engaged in polygamy, there were also many men(I'm one of them) who values ethics and honesty above all else. I don't want a woman who'll fling around, and I'm no hypocrite.

Perhaps it's sexually pleasuring, for a while to engage in polygamy. But sex for sex's purpose is just as outdated. If women had a stigma they want to get rid of, men want to get rid of their own stigma, which is this.

its neither personally I would LOVE if women would take the lead to an extent as long as she isnt being bossy it would be appreciated frankly i would assume im not the only one cause subtle hints i can say that for me im the least observant of when it comes to that it would really help if women were alittle more assertive in that regard(plus im a tiny bit shy when it comes to talking to the opposite sex)

It was and still is a crusade. It's called the Women's Rights Movement. And that isn't exaggerated historical context, that IS historical context. It might not make as much of an impact on you, because you're not a woman and therefore wouldn't have been subjected to the same treatment.

And people still maintain things, because that is what they have always been taught to expect. The majority of us have been raised and taught by individuals who lived during the time when those sorts of things were so commonplace they weren't questioned. When you've been told from a young age to expect certain things, then you naturally grow to expect them. After all, that's all you know at the time. It isn't a huge mystery why it ends up in our subconscious. We learn these things entirely from our parents, and from society (which still mostly adheres to these old fashioned traditions).

To add onto this discussion; I was listening to a christian radio station and they brought up the topic that if a woman asks a man to marry her it is considered to be disgraceful and looked down upon.

I asked my friends and they said they would take the initiative on asking a man on a date, but when it comes to marriage that is a mans job to ask. Opinions?

Hmm... honestly speaking, though I have no qualms about a girl initiating a date with me, I've been so hard-conditioned by media and society, I can't really even IMAGINE the girl proposing to the guy anymore. I don't know what to think for this matter. :S

Honestly, I'd have no qualms about the matter. Even with media and society being so hard pressed to keep traditional values and morals, we continue to break down those barriers all the time. It's a dreadfully slow and steady process, but it is happening. The mere fact that it's constantly being presented for debate should further prove this, and it's facepalming-ly ironic that the same people wanting to keep things "how they should be" are the same type that have had those same ideals drilled into them since they could walk.

Honestly, in a society that continues to ask for equal treatment and fair standards, what should come with those is the responsibility to allow each side of the genders to make their own choices when it comes to what they feel are their personal and private situations. Should/can the women be the "bread winner"? Yes. Can a women ask a man for a date? They should. Can a women ask a man for marriage? Why the hell not? For the visa versa, can a man be a stay-at-home dad? If it works out for both adults, sure.

To sum it up, these flip-flopping ideals, biased ideas, and ridiculous double-standards are slowly fading into the background, and it seems to have everyone on edge for some reason or another. If it works, why the hell shouldn't we just embrace it?