Concealed Carry on campus

For the quote from the statistics... though I usually go by the saying "statistic is the first of all imprecise sciences", they are nice to give a rough overview.
Meh, I won't meddle too much around, seeing that it is hard for outsiders to understand the mentality in the states (or the other way round for that matter), unless you live there for a while.
Back on topic: I think I would be pretty much disturbed though if students were allowed to bring guns to the university where I am studying. It would give me a real unpleasant feeling.

1. Ofc I'd rather kill the dude. Still, if guns weren't so easely attainable, the problem with criminals using guns would lower. Ofc, people will always be able to get guns somehow, but at least not just any 18 years old kid, unstable an all with bullies and shit.

2. Yea, sure, but "defend yourself" usually doesn't mean "kill the one who tries to kill you", only in the U.S. Even if you kill someonw trying to protect yourself, you still murder someone. It's contradictive, and letting anyone use guns to stop hinder violence is contraproductive by itself.

Yea, sure, all civilizied nations in the world but the U.S are pussies who's living in a dream. A dream where murder is Not the most committed crime. And no, but a slim person Can wear a kevlar, and I said "illigalize weapons" wich means it's a higher probability the crime will be committed with something like a knife, bat or something, something you Can run away from. And also, it's a smaller target if you ain't fat.

I like how these arguments never have anyone that takes the gray area's ground. It's always either "YEAH GUNS OORRAH!" Or "Guns are bad they need to be outlawed."

The murder rate isn't a fair stat at gun control. Japan has the highest per capita suicide rate. So is rope dangerous? A murderer will kill you someway somehow. He can use a ordinary kitchenware like a fork or a knife, he could use a Louisville Slugger in his garage, he could run you over with his car, he could break a window and use the glass shards, he could find a really big stick. He could even use a crossbow or ninja stars.

While those would reduce the body count it still doesn't stop the crime. Just because something is used in a crime doesn't mean the crime will be prevented by removing the item.

Before you say something along the lines of a knife won't do as much harm. There was a story in Japan where a man crashed his vehicle, got out and started attacking all nearby people with a knife, killing 7 with a dozen injured. If one of the people in that area had a firearm. The man would have been dead shortly after his rampage began and his count wouldn't have gotten as high.

Ethil, minimum age anywhere except Alaska (IIRC) for concealed carry application is 21. And then there's the mandatory safety training/ect.



KG989, I'm not suggesting either choice. I agree with the BATF's ban on destructive devices and I think that a mental health exam should be part of permit application. But I see firearms like cars; dangerous and potentially deadly in the wrong hands, tools in responsible ones, (Edited In) and alot of fun used recreationally.

Then for your neutrality you have my respect.

It isn't fair? So give me another legimit reason why the US has one of the highest murder crime rates in the world of all the big, rich nations. The japanese suicides, is 1. The 'victims' own doing, he kills himself 2. Ropes are dangerous, but mostly used for good things, a gun is made to kill. A murderer who have planned murder will, yes, but a unplanned murder, in a sudden hot moment is much less likely to happen if the future murderer is carying a fork instead of a gun.



Yea, why save some when you can't save them all.



I don't say that a knife isn't dangerous, and sure, he might have been stoped earlier if one of the people had a gun, but I wonder how many more would have died if he had a gun as well? And if he had a gun, legally, and noone of the other had bothered? How much harder it would have been for the police to get to him if he had a firearm?



Oh, ok, 21, it doesn't matter. You can still be at school, and old people kill just as well as 18 year olds. And sure, safety training, and what do you need to clear it? It's not like it's hard to pass it, right? If you don't start killing people right there or say something like "I will use this gun to kill my neighbour" you probably will get the licensce.

If there is easy and possible to get guns, and people will get them if there are, then there will be murders. I'm not saying it won't otherwise, but the crime will most likely be much more deadly.

And hey, I'm not stating my opinion here, I don't actually care. Have legal weapons, kill each other as much as you like, I know I would kill someone going after me. I'm just saying that it is STUPID not to think that having legal guns won't increase the counts of corpses in a crime.

Won't effect school shootouts since most of the students who do it usually commit suicide in the end, meaning they don't care how much debt they acquire.



Shits easier to get than you think. Besides, if we go with what you say, pretty soon the only people who will have guns are the bad guys. You're asking innocent people to disarm themselves and let themselves be a pushover.



I'd rather the other person die than me and having a gun gives me a chance to fight back. Also, how's it counterproductive? Taking out a rampaging criminal means you might have taken one life to save two or maybe even thousands.



There are more weapons than just melee weapons. Knives can even become projectiles making it harder to run and hide as you've stated. There are also homemade bombs to consider. Although guns do kill, it can be a protective weapon.



Doesn't necessarily mean we can attribute the high murder rates to guns. There are other countries with legalized firearms that aren't ranked high on the highest murder crime rates list.



If we combine your theory AND FPoD's theory, that would mean the victims might have had a gun meaning they would have been able to shoot back causing a lower murder rate. Seems like this might work out when you have an open mind, right?

Since you missed the point allow me to spoon feed it to you like a child.

You like many other gun control supporters have come to the conclusion that since a gun was involved in a crime that the gun is the reason behind the crime. That notion is completely illogical. A murderer will kill someone regardless of the existence of a gun. We could ban guns completely and yet there would still be gun violence. Why? because the criminals will still get their hands on guns. You seek only to ban the guns from the hands of law abiding citizens. I will repeat that fact until it finally drives itself into your skull.

Your answer to criminals having guns is to remove guns from the hands of law abiding citizens. Your punishing Frank for a crime Harry committed. From there, Frank is going to rob Harry because Harry doesn't have a gun to protect himself.



Again you missed the point. Go back and actually read and understand what I said before you comment and waste my time with your mental dribble.



I don't say that a knife isn't dangerous, and sure, he might have been stoped earlier if one of the people had a gun, but I wonder how many more would have died if he had a gun as well? And if he had a gun, legally, and noone of the other had bothered? How much harder it would have been for the police to get to him if he had a firearm?

Not much more difficult than it would have been if he was armed with a knife or similar weapon. This whole argument is over whether or not adults should be allowed to carry a fire arm on a college campus after they acquire a permit that requires that they undergo a psychiatric test and a safety class which teaches you aspects about your firearm. In reality those are the people you want around you. The people who use a firearm regularly at shooting ranges. The people who know exactly what the firearm is capable of doing.

Honestly, you have nothing to fear from a law abiding citizen who wishes to use his second amendment rights. The crazies are the people who need to be watched which the psychiatric screenings would weed them out. Not only do you have to jump through hoops to get a concealed weapons permit you also have to get a permit to own the weapon you want concealed.

The kind of people you want armed with a firearm are people like macross and myself. We know what a gun can do and won't throw it around like some cheap toy from wal-mart.

how easy is it to acquire a gun in the USA?
I am under the impression where you can just go to a store like 7-eleven and go
"I like a baretta with 2 magazines to go pls"

Look on Wiki, and it differs state to state. But the long and short is:

18+ walk into walmart and buy a long-gun (rifle/shot, non-NFA*)

21+ walk into gun store and buy handgun (must be transported like rifle, in hard case)

21+ able to apply for concealed-carry permit (subject to state regs, no concealed carry in Massachusetts and in NY very very hard to get permit) common to all is a fee and safety training course.

I have by no means misunderstood what you said; I'm not saying that the gun is the murderer, I'm saying that Guns make Murder Easier. There is a reason why we don't fight wars with swords anymore.

Of course criminals will get their hands on guns, there will be no stopping it, but I'm pretty sure that it would reduce those "crazy people who randomly starts shooting-cases" that you all say "happends rarely". It's much harder for a young kid, or a normal person with no contacts with criminals at all to get a gun if he can't buy it of wal-mart. It's more likely to be kept a hidden fantasy than being realized.



It's not the law abiding citizens job to stop crime by killing others. And punishment? So you just want to be able to carry a gun, just because its not fair otherwise or what? In most countries it Is A Crime To Carry Weapons. And it is like that for a reason.

And now you're saying that it's fair to kill someone for stealing... Guess life < money in US then. Well, guess that's actually kind of true, but still, is not qwhat someone who wants to legally carry a gun should say.



I did read, and I think I did a rather accurate interpretation; if it would reduce the body count, isn't it worth removing it, even if the crime doesn't disappear completely? As I said, normally you'd think it's better to save more than few just because stubborn people thinks it's cool to carry guns.



Wait, did you just say that it is just as easy to stop someone who is using a gun as a weapon as someone with a knife? ... Dude.

And yes, ofc you want to go around wondering if that guy over there got a concealed gun somewhere, that he might just find amusing to start using. Instable people Will get those certificates, and there Will be instable persons carrying around hidden guuns at schools.



Yea, until the seemingly law abiding citizen suddenly decides to ignore the law. A psychotest won't sort all the bad people out, it's naive thinking.



I'll give you a quick tip; never go inside EU. Murder is illegal there, even in self-defence.

people will always resort to violence when they cannot find another solution to their problems. i own quite a few firearms myself, but things like this are to protect everyone, think about it from another perspective. What if your child was killed in the crossfire at school for something he/she had no involvement in what so ever. how would you feel? the reasoning behind all of the school shootings that have been recorded in the last 15 or so years were all over stupid thing. Resorting to violence for any reason beyond self defense, is a stupid reason PERIOD


let me tell you about something that happened to me about 2 years ago. I was working for a dominoes as a driver.. i stopped at my delivery when a kid about 16 came out to meet me and attempted to rob me at gun point... he told me to step out of the car(were not supposed to carry weapons but due to the area i live in most drivers did) long and short of the story.. kid is serving 20 years and recovering from a dislocated shoulder, yea i lost my job over it and had to go to court due to the kids mother trying to press charges, but it was worth it to make a point.

That crazy kid might just use a knife or another object to kill people. Want to keep guns out of the hands of crazy kids then support the increase of safety measures in weapons instead of trying to deprive law abiding citizens of the weapons. Which by "legalizing" firearms you'll do just that.



History lesson: What do Stalin, Hitler, pol pot and about a dozen other dime store dictators do once they reached power? Hmm...Now let me see....Oh yeah! They banned firearms to the people they planned to oppress. Why? because an armed populace is a LOT harder to push around than an unarmed one. Governments love to pad their gun control numbers so they look good. I mean, what politician who be caught dead with statistics that prove their policies are ineffective? Welcome to politics my friend. Be skeptical.

You are absolutely right, it's not a citizens job to enforce the law but, police the America are about five levels below incompetent. If you would like, I can share a few stories about police that show how truly little they care about the people they are charged with protecting.

When it comes down to it the person who has the most incentive to protect you, is you.



I said nothing about killing someone. The word kill or murder never even made it way into that sentence. So, try not to jump to conclusions anymore. Since you didn't follow the clear example and somehow jumped to accusing me of supporting murder. I honestly can't make the example and easier to understand. You'll have to work on that yourself.



What's to say that general crime won't increase? Sure, gun crime will decrease as the availability will be down but, that only switches people from using guns in a crime (regardless if they fire the weapon) to other weapons being used. A rapist will use a gun or a knife so you don't put a dent in those figures. Do to people have to rely less on their own protection and rely more on the incompetent police? If you really wanted crime to go down you'd be attacking the fourth through eighth amendments instead of the second. Lets forget ideas like gun registration, locks for the guns and the plethora of other ideas that prevent angsty kids from shooting up their schools or that gun bans won't stop the real violent people from using them. Once you choose to ignore several better ideas then we come to yours. Honestly, this tells me you fear law abiding citizens with the power to defend themselves.




I don't know any any special benefits a gun gives you but, a bullet in your chest will put you down the same way regardless if you have a knife, a gun, an axe, a claymore or even Excalibur. A bullet in your chest and you hit the ground the same way.

A.D.D. moment: Except Excalibur from Soul Eater. If you can stand him long enough to use it then it might have something special effect that stops bullets, maybe.



Appealing to fear doesn't work in S.D. champ. You are assuming that the crazies somehow ges through the screenings for both a permit to own the weapon and the screening to conceal it (which is a lot harder than you think). Then Seriously, if the crazy gets the gun it's because of the gun shop not doing their part of the deal or the government failed on it's end. If there is a flaw then it's in the system of screenings. The rate of crazies getting a weapon are low but, we can never stamp it out. Crazies and criminals will find ways to circumvent the system and gun bans only seek to disarm those who are not inclined to use the gun against another person unless they are in danger.




I don't plan too. I enjoy Freedom, Liberty and Individuality not Tyrannical collectivism.

A.D.D. moment: "Don't defend yourselves, it'll save lives!"

... The things is my friend that it's a LOT harder defending against a gun than a knife.



Lesson of Society: There is a lot more countries that has illegalized weapons that don't have any dictatorship; rather the opposite, the people actually have equal rights and important governmental (? might be wrong word, w/e) is decided by the people itself, by vote. I don't think that a bunch of armed hoodlums can stand against the government AND THE ARMY WHICH ANSWERS TO IT, guns or not. Don't mix up tyranical dictators with normal, working societies.



Then how about making the police do a better job instead of giving criminals more space to move about by handing out guns to everybody and their mothers?



Yea, sure, just shoot the guy in the shoulder and Hope that he don't bleed to death.



I must say that I'd rather have an increase of stealing than keeping a high count of innocent victims. And as I said, a guns is a much more deadly weapon than a knife, so if they change to that it's just for the better. And shit like gun registration and crap obviosly doesn't work, since people are getting killed with legally obtained weapons.



Other than the fact that you can stand 50 meters away and still put someone down with a gun, hard to do that with a knife. Excalibur might, but yea...



A double-edged sword that is =O =)



Since it's allowed to carry it, what good does the screening do? I hardly think that every student gets to know which other students that carry a weapon.



I don't plan too. I enjoy Freedom, Liberty and Individuality not Tyrannical collectivism.[/quote]

Yea, americans enjoy that, while they also enjoy war, murdering people from other countries, saying that it's "for the greater good". You people obviously does not even know what Freedom and Liberty stands for. Just an overly used empty frase that have lost it's meaning. To prevent something that does more harm to society than helps it is not "tyrannical collectivism", it should be fucking standard law for any civilized country. People enjoy freedom just the same, but they don't go around killing eachother or takes the law in their own hands. And it obviously works, since homocide crimerates is a lot lower in Any EU country than in the US. And hey, I can still do whatever I want, work with whatever I want to, go wherever I want, screw it all if I want that as well. Feels good being able to do that knowing that even if someone gets angry I won't at least get a gun in my face.



Truth, in some situations. Also a matter of perception.

Think, a Girl on PMS and who just got dumped by her boyfriend is liable to go on murdering spree.

I for one do not want to face such a monster as I am busy with my homework.

Seriously though, give people some credit. A person has to be highly responsible to aquire a CCW permit even in Michigan or Arizona. Second, and this speaks to other stuff, but I know PMS can make a woman bitchy sometimes but honestly, give them some credit. I highly doubt that a woman would go on a shooting spree over something like that. And anyway, we're not talking about 18y/o's here, we're discussing people 21 and older.

If kids at high school age can obtain weapons and go on shooting sprees, it makes me less confident in the gun control laws. Columbine, VIT, and many other incidents are not events to be ignored.

I vaguely remember a topic similar to this quite awhile back. Anyways, here's gun control in a nutshell: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Would be the same with any other lethal weapon. Don't make it more difficult for those who can legally carry a firearm.

Again, people seem to be ignoring the fact that even if guns were outlawed, they could be acquired through illegal methods. Making guns legally purchasable gives the public a chance at fighting back, since the bad guys aren't the only ones with guns.