Sigh, here we go again America

The more a person tells him/herself "the world won't end on December 21st 2012" the more reasons he/she gets to believe that.

If a war or something does happen there won't be a headline that reads "Iran or US declare war", it will be one of those sticky, stumbled into, kind of things where no one in the general public really knows what happened.

Well the NDAA was only just signed and conveniently enough the Navy just floats its way into a hotspot under the "its for Afghanistan" veil. Lundi and FPoD are right though. Corporations want money, money is in oil, its essentially free to them to start a war for oil. The government members end up looking like idiots because of it. Of course if this carries on long enough the media will be so busy covering it SOPA/PROTECT IP can slip through Congress without a sound.

Until China and it's 1 billion+ people take over.

That same mindset caused the War of 1812, Americans would rather pay fortunes for war rather than a penny for whatever that term was.

Of course, the US had way more reasons for engaging in the War of 1812 against the British than just that. National pride was a big deal; the Chesapeake affair had a huge part in the US's decision to go to war.

Going back to the present day, I don't think national pride's gonna take a major blow, regardless of what we do in the Middle East. We're doing whatever it is we're doing with only the personal interest of those at the top in mind.

Opps, wrong historical reference. I was thinking of the XYZ affair at the time, then I realized there actually wasn't a war.

Yea, I was kinda wondering if you meant that. I just didn't want to throw myself out on a limb and then make myself look like a dumbass if I was wrong, lol.

But the XYZ affair itself was stupid. It was just two countries being stubborn because one wanted an apology and the other refused. Although it didn't start an official war, they did engage in an undeclared naval war for about twelve years, which was a total waste of time, mind you, because nothing was solved. Only reason it ended was because the previous French government ended and Napoleon started gaining power.

Newt Gingrich just said in a speech that Iran = Suicide Bombers, and that is why we have to kill them before they acquire a nuclear weapon. Well, did they fire one yet?

What we're really doing right now is PROVOKING Iran to build a nuclear weapon because we're showing a clear intention to invade!

If China wanted to invade America because they have nuclear arms, then why is that suddenly a problem? We need diplomacy, NOT more wars!

Spot on. It's these hypocrisies that makes the world hate us.

It reminds me of something funny I learned during my Latin American Politics class. We were researching US-Latin American relations, and one thing that stood out to me was an argument between Rafael Correa (Ecuador's president) and the US. Our government wanted to keep a military base in Ecuador but Correa flat out refused to renew the agreement that kept it operational. After some more insistence, Correa told us this: we can have our military base, but under one small condition: Ecuador gets its own base in Miami.

Not too long after, the US moved its forces one house over to Columbia.

Well my post was -1 repped, so now I'm curious about what the other side of the story is :P

Fix it?

Would, but there's that lame 24-hour waiting period before reps. Still got 20 more to go, apparently.

And someone probably derepped 'cause they ig'nant.

In my opinion, dealing with Iran is quite simpler than those working in the government might be over-complicating it.

Yes, Ahmadinjad is a Muslim extremist, but he doesn't show intention to invade other countries over Jihad that I know of (correct me?)

His problem is he is a conspiracy theorist who religiously follows people like David Duke, and instead of his religion being his motive for hate against Israel, he believes in "zionist" conspiracy theories.

We have to talk to him, and confront his concerns on David Duke's rumors about Israel and America being a "Satanic Jewish" conspiracy. Prove him wrong and TALK to him instead of fueling his ideas about American imperialism!

Right now Iran feels like it's the victim, and obviously they feel justified to fight back. But if we could just talk to them, a lot could be accomplished.

It's not Ahmadinejad that worries me so much as Ayatollah Khamenei. Even if we managed to get Ahmadinejad to lighten up his foreign policy towards the US, Khamenei ultimately holds the power to reverse any and all decisions made by him. And Khamenei has made it painfully obvious how much he opposes the US. He's referred to us a global dictatorship and the such. It's not like we give him much to think otherwise.

What we're missing in this discussion is the reprecussions, and what I mean by that is that in their clamor for war, they aren't telling the American People the truth of how extensive this is going to be.

Russia has already made the position clear, that it will not tolerate an Iranian attack in any circumstance. In other words, hostilities with Russia. If that isn't enough to make an American hesitate, then know that Syria also has close ties with Iran and has also declared that an Iranian attack will mean Syrian involvement.

Still not convinced? China has come out in recent months to declare she will protect Iranian interests, add to that her alliance with Russia and there's no doubt of heavy Chinese involvement.

If an American is still stupid enough to actually want to get involved in this situation, Newt Ginrich mentions Pakistan(a Chinese Proxy), I'm glad to see Newt isn't entirely clueless but he's still majorly clueless.

Far more concerning is the tight Chinese-North Korean ties, now that's a nation that actually HAS nuclear weapons and has opposed U.S. Policy in the past.

But I'm not done yet, when the Iranian Question has come up, several Middle Eastern experts have feared and theorized that an Iranian attack will unite the divided Muslim factions and hence countries that otherwise might be neutral would join in the now-expanding regional/world war conflict on the part of the Iran-Chinese-Russian axis.

Like, say Turkey! In a show of geopolitical ignorance on the part of Israel, her long time Muslim ally Turkey merely asked for an apology for the death of it's civilians(in violation of International Law, Gaza Strip is NOT Israeli territory and should not be regulated by the Jewish). Israel refused to comply, because it's own appointed "investigation team" determined they did no wrong.

Turkey was rightfully offended by this, Turkey was willing to oversee the death of it's own people for a simple apology and they actually had the gall to say no?

In a regional muslimic war, Turkey will now take the side of the Eurasian Axis, all because Israel couldn't give a simple apology.

The fear by most U.S. Generals and the fear of anyone paying attention is that this regional world war will be one where we will experience what the AXIS experienced in 1945.

A two-front war which will lead to America's second military defeat, this one so resounding and obvious that it might finally wake Americans up to the need for political reform.

This topic is...powerful!
Personally in my opinion, everyone should make innovation with their resources.
It's rude to destroy other country while we can sit down peacefully and bargain the price.
Hey,this is just business.Be peaceful and everyone gets their profit.
Agree?

China doesn't have the economic strength nor the incentive to be directly involved in a war vs the U.S. China is currently suffering from a huge real estate bubble (that's bursting) and government debt problem. The Chinese Government is trying to change the culture of thrifty saving into a culture of consumer spending.

If China did get involved it would be mostly limited to material support for the other countries. Why send your own troops to fight when you can send the troops of another country to fight for you?

One of the largest debates within the American military, especially right now, is the policy of 2MTW, The United States could probably win a two-front war in conventional warfare, simply because it's military is so overwhelmingly powerful that it could keep up the pressure and it's allies are plentiful, including NATO.
Speaking of NATO, we can talk about Turkey, which is also being advertised to be inducted into the EU by 2013, Turkey isn't going to declare war on Israel because Israel didn't apologize for killing it's citizens, it would be pissing off the two largest economic/military and industrial powers in the world. That is retarded policy making and no nation, including Turkey, would in their right mind actually side with Iran for that reason.

And let's talk about Russia and China, whom are both nations who has very integrated economically with the United States, declaring war on the United States would utterly wreck and destroy the three economies and toss the world into utter chaos. If the United States and Israel were to attack Iran, China and Russia would likely not act in my opinion because they simply do not want to lose their economic progress because some childish nation is being moody with it's weapons program, Sure Iran has oil, but China cut it's oil import from Iran even though China is hungry for some oil. Economic MAD is just as bad as nukes, and China isn't going to risk angering the United States over Iran.

Russia meanwhile, is in the very same boat as China, why risk pissing off the Americans and NATO when it can just dump Iran and keep it's economy intact, and simply let another failed regime go up in Iran. The Russians are also concerned about Iran's nuclear capabilities, agreeing to a NATO defence shield to block Iranian missiles. *Even though they now think it's mainly there to check Russia's missile capabilities* Russia and China are simply trying to scare America off from attacking Iran, but if it did ever attack, then China and Russia would simply denounce the idea rather then commit economic suicide.

I've heard theories that an attack on Iran would enrage the Sunni's within the region, so there would be mass revolts, and even attacks against Shi'a and the Western powers in the region, but Iran is more isolated in the region then you let on. Right now, there is a Cold War between Saudi Arabia and Iran, and Iran is viewed, in the Arab world as an outsider trying to dominate it. (Iran is actually Persian)Syria would probably support Iran, maybe Pakistan might, but it does view Iran as a rival in Afghanistan and it's relationship with Saudi Arabia is very close.

Turkey doesn't expect admission into the E.U and the E.U has universally decried Turkey as a muslimic nation, rather than a european one. It's a political gambit on the part of Turkey, DUE to American geopolitical aggression in Eurasia. I don't think I've underlooked the economic circumstances, China is not integrated economically with America, more like China has declared economic war on the American Economy and the "American Leadership" has done absolutely nothing about it. They tout their noses and complain every once and a while, but there's no action on the treason of NAFTA, let's not leave the WTC and other such organizations that are blatantly anti-English/American. One could argue(and has argued) that war temporarily inflates economies as well as debts.

Since China is already in a shitload of debt, a temporary economic inflation to support moral for it's people is the stopgag the Chinese government has been looking for, especially as they contend with Chinese rebellion against the communist-dictator establishment since Mao Mao.

I'd argue that it's you that is understating the economic reasonings behind Chinese-Russian defense of Iran to the last man.

http://www.irantracker.org/foreign-relations/russia-iran-foreign-relations

Not just military ties but even agricultural ties of a high level, both nations need each other equally and based on the actions of the Russian Federation, Russia feels much the same way.

http://www.irantracker.org/foreign-relations/china-iran-foreign-relations

The Chinese-Russian-Iran axis is a very real axis, one that you seem to underestimate if not disregard all together.

The premise that we can win a two-front Eurasian war with this Axis is the same hubris with which Germany once decided to take on Russia and the Western Powers. But as he was losing the war, dictator Adolf Hitler finally lamented that it was with the weakness of Italy and the non-cooperation of Japan, that doomed his war efforts.

One state, couldn't take on an AXIS. If our military is so emboldened as to believe it can accomplish what genocidal Germany could not then feel free to believe that, but given de-classified information about the billions of dollars in weapons missing, about our lack of progress in Afghanistan and I have serious doubts about our ability to maintain a successful front in this regional warfare.

It's more of the leaders trying to control their people and trying to show off their power. And honestly unless the U.S says their going to fight for the Iranian people then there's no point in fighting them unless they attack first.

This is all true except for your analysis seems a bit one-sided. The US doesn't want to anger the Chinese as much as the Chinese don't want to anger the US. China owns a lot of the US debt and if you know about the Suez Crisis that was mentioned briefly before in this thread, this means China are in the driving seat when it comes to economic pressures.

I don't know where you're getting your figures from, because China certainly didn't disclose them. Although this rationally assumes to the actual figures as being negative rather than positive, it's still discreditable to use it as a point for your argument.