Virtual Property

I don't know how many of you play video games (I guess some do), but I think this topic is related to video games, especially online gaming.

When I say virtual property, I'm not talking about copyrights or intellectual property, it's about the ownership of an object in a virtual world.

For example, in World of Warcraft, a user can sell his character (even though, apparently, he's not allowed to), which would mean he has a property right on the object.
However when you register for the first time, in the rules and general conditions, it says that everything WoW related is the property of Blizzard (that's what copyright is).

So, a gamer does have a right of use of the object, he can enjoy the "fruits" of his possession, and thus does have a limited property right.
But he can not own the object, including accounts (there was a case where someone's account was hacked, and the person wanted to sue the hacker, and he couldn't because he does not own the account, only the hosting company does).

Also, how would this new right be applicable, given that Internet does not have any borders, no national laws could be applied here, so which system could be used, and what kind of property could be created?
Will the copyrights and intellectual properties suffer from this?
I think those are the limits for virtual property...

In the end, (and sorry for the wall of text, I think it's important to define a bit the subject) do you think it is necessary to create a new right of ownership for objects in a virtual world?

PS : I'm not sure if this belongs in SD, maybe I should put it in the video game section :p

Yeah, maybe you should.

Anyway, I think it's logical to give the rights to the company, unless it's for a paid service. In that case, ownership should be shared or handed over to the user.

If it's a free service, then you really don't own anything. Kind of like consignment (business term). Even though they give you something, it doesn't truly belong to you (or anyone else) until someone pays for it. So yeah, money.

I think, at best, you could only hold partial ownership for anything on it.

i think there should be some laws on it, say if the account gets hacked yada yada, but if you get scamed in game, because of your own foolishness, its your fault. for instance!





either way tho its a real slipper slope sence it doesint really "exist" eve is kinda diffrent however as there is real monatary value to the in game ISK because of the P.L.E.X. system. were you can buy game time with ISK, for 30 dollers wich is something like 200 million isk, and objects in game have value so when you break it down you can put real value to what gets stolen, destroyed or scamed, but sence its part of the game you cant say "hey! he just stole 1000 dollers worth of "property" from me! ima gonna sue him!"

in the end... ir eally got no idea what to do, i have a bit to much on my mind atm but i can point out the chalangges to overcome while atampting it =D

I hate alot of things wrong with the law.
A bit off topic here, but i hate it how burglars climb into people's homes, steal something valuable and cut their selves on their broken fence (for example) as they're leaving. This burglar can sue the owner for having dangerous things around. It makes sense, but this burglar can get competely off the hook for it :/

In regards to your subject, i honestly think people should be able to claim more possession over accounts and what not. If not, then Blizzard should have it assigned to someone. A bit like renting i suppose.

Who owns the code, own the stuff. WoW characters are the sole property of blizzard, the username is their property too the use of the name and the data collected is technically still own by blizzard but the agreement you sign let you rent or use it as long as your a player.

same goes a lot of stuff solely in the interwebs like your email and yes... your user name here. Your avi and the stuff you type and think are yours, but still jacob owns the rights to edit, ban and delete your stuff if he chooses too.

Speaking of which, guess what happened to me today. That's right, someone broke into my home and stole my stuff. I so wish I was there so I could have taken my 12 gauge to them.

You're paying for a service (in MMOs), not a product. They are allowing you the privilege of using their toys, not letting you keep them. The account is just access to the service. It's not yours, and they can take it away at anytime.

If it's free, you're fucked anyways. Nothing is going to be done over something you didn't even pay for.

I like the rules as they are, I think of it as a way to remind you that what you're doing isn't all that real, and it's something that should be done sparingly. If you sink hundreds of hours into a game and get jacked, deal with it, nerd. Talk to the owners and sort it out. Taking it to the real world is pathetic.

Are you talking about EVE online? I don't know much about this game, but apparently there is a whole economic system inside the game. I read that they even have contracts for selling or buying goods...That's interesting cause it means the only step missing for the system to be really realistic...is the right of ownership. Does anyone plays that game?



Haha I doubt the companies or the law cares how much time you spend on the game...:3

The thing is internet is becoming part of the real world, more and more, just look how many things we need internet for, how dependent our lives are to internet. I don't think it's only games either, how about applications on Ipods and Iphones and things? (I'm really asking, I don't own any kind of smartphones and barely touch any so...)



But at some point it's not "renting" anymore, you possess the object, as if it was yours, the only thing you don't have is a legal right of ownership, even limited...Which makes people think it's like in real life, they think they own the object, even though legally they don't. I don't think this issue will be solved anytime soon, it's still at a very theoretical stage, but the law will have to intervene at some point or another, in my opinion.

Oh lawd, pirates on the high seas, captain! What do we do?

Stuff like apps are taken care of by the individual companies, and by law if necessary. Apps for Apple/Android/whatever are taken care of; and even then, the same desired effect of an app can be presented 50 different ways, so as long as you aren't plagiarising other coder's work, I think you're fine.

I think that can also be applied to any type of computer work, but I'm not well-versed in electronic law, so don't take my word for it. I may be well wrong.

Legal scenario #1

Virtual ownership is like leasehold (fermage). The leaseholder (player) enjoys the fruits of the held object, he may use it for a time, but he is required to remunerate the owner (GAMING, INC.) for its use. Holdership may be revoked whenever the contract stipulating the conditions of the leasehold granted is broken.


Legal scenario #2:

Virtual ownership is like real ownership. The player owns the virtual object, whereas the GAMING, INC. is acting as a caretaker. The legal situation is the same as with a safe deposit box in a bank vault: The owner (player) pays the caretaker (GAMING, INC) a certain remuneration for safekeeping and the use of the bank vault (server). Onwership cannot be revoked.


Obviously, scenario #2 is the only one of any sanity whatsoever, but luckily for us all, this mortal coil is completely overrun with retards, so #1 is the closest to ANY rights for players we could ever hope to get. PERIOD.

Second-Life seems like a wonderful place to research the value of Virtual Property seeing as items ARE traded for cash legally...and at insanely close to real life value at times.

Question: Do you base those scenarios in a common law or civil law system?

I think both scenarios would be very difficult to enforce, but for me scenario #1 is closer to the current situation, while scenario #2 would be kind of idealistic. But I agree that scenario #2 would be "cleaner" than scenario #1, which would quickly become a total mess.



Oh? I never knew this game used real money! I'll go do some research then, it's really interesting.

Why does option 2 make more sense?

Do you get legal ownership over items when you rent them from a place for entertainment purposes?

No. You don't. This is the same type of concept.

I am pretty sure if you read through the terms of agreement (who does that?) you would find something about rights of your account belonging to the company who made the game.

@ Kalistean

Hm, I didn't say Scenario 2 made more sense. I said it was more idealistic, and more easy to apply in theory.

Because a right of ownership is absolute, while a lease is a more complicated legal situation, and is not absolute. As THE ECONOMY said, you can revoke a leasehold because it's more of a contractual right than a property right.

And I don't think you rent an item, even though it can seem similar. When you rent, you use the object but you have to give it back as it was when you got it (you can't rent food for example), while a right of use, you can use the object (like a rent) but you can also enjoy the fruits and alienate the object. Which means you can enver return it as it was before.

Moreover, a rent is still a contract between two parties, while a property right is between you and the whole world. You certainly have a contract between you and the gaming company, but what binds you to the other users? That's where I think, a property right might be useful.

I used to but I've semi-retired from it, pulled off a small heist with a mate of mine the rage and threats from the poor guy we robbed was priceless.

I also played as a trader buying/selling making a profit and also losing large sums of it on a bad gamble.

With most MMOs you don't own anything. The company owns it and have the right at any time to strip the use of it away from you if you break the terms of service.
Most people who don't read the terms of service don't realise this.

as far as eve online goes the econamy is incredibly in-depth, it rises and falls it crashes and peaks and just about everything effects it, for instance, whenever a new trailer comes out, such as the one i show you. traders start many many more contracts in the newbie area and starting stationg for a much inflated price, so the newguys who dont know better but stuff at 200 percent market avrage, but those are the small fry, theres traders who have entire finacail empires trillions upon trillions of ISK who hire out freightor pilots to transport it around new eden, paying them millions and still makeing a gigantic profit margin, anyway. i should stop ranting about the game i love. you know now that the econamy is very indepth and as real as possible, the reason this gets a little wonky with eve is becuase of the PLEX like i mentioned earlier, its CCP's way to combat IRL money trading. the sell a plex, for 15 dollers. but they normaly sell two at a time. and you can choose to either use it in game and extend your subscrition by thirty days or you can sell it for about 2-400 million. wich is very problimatic if you start adding the whole property thing, cuase aliances and empires can be worth thousands of IRL money. and it can be taken in a instant via ingame scenario such as the casuilty trailer pointed out. but the fact that ccp suports that is a doosy, it enrages some and others love it, [like myself] anyway, as i said before i cant even think about a soultion to offer but i dont mind pointed out the problems lol

I'll chip into the discussion.

You are paying for a service. lets draw a comparison between your cell phone and your Wow account.

You own you phone. You bought it and it will remain yours until a time you sell it. You pay for the service to use their cell towers and their networks. This is how it is with WoW and other MMO's you are paying them for use of their service (which includes, their servers, their in game items, etc). Your EULA acknowledges that you are mere a licensee and never actually own the game, character,etc and Blizzard or whoever has the right to deny or decline service to anyone who violates their agreement. This is why Microsoft can ban you from Xbox Live regardless of how much money you paid for that service. You own the console yes, and you may own your copy of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 and you are free to play those as much as you desire but, Microsoft owns the servers and can deny you access for whatever they choose. Don't like it, go to Playstation.

As far as apps for your iphone are concerned. You own them. You paid for the use of that application. An example is I buy Tetris for my phone. I own that game from now to eternity. I can play it, I can hack it, etc to my hearts desire. Now if that app requires the use of another server then they can deny you access to that server.

Mate you should see the most awesome killmail ever.
Some poor bastard was ganked in Jita with a Cyno Kestrel full of PLEXs.
Edit: Found it here.

Also if you're rich enough in eve you can manipulate the market.