Video Game RPG Storytelling

So, I'm a huge fan of RPG video games, almost all types, from Bioware games to Final Fantasy games.

However, I have not yet found the RPG that has a story that truly blows you away. Metal Gear Solid 4 had the best storytelling of any game I have ever played, and I am already prepared to say that it is a masterpiece of gaming and one of the greatest games ever made, but RPGs are supposedly the master storytellers of games, and no RPG I have played has reached that level. Good games have their brushes with drama and intensity, but it has always been fleeting, and padded with hours upon hours of filler and fluff.

It seems that RPGs, especially J-RPG style RPGs, have fallen into a rut of familiar character stereotypes and generic plots(Final Fantasy games would be the prototype for J-RPGs. Set characters, often long cutscenes, locked storyline, mostly non-interactive worlds, as opposed to something like Neverwinter Nights where the emphasis is on interactive worlds, choices, and character customization.)

Why do we see the same generic leads and supports(the exile who is disgraced by a misinterpretation of history, the supposed stoic who pretends not to care but really does, the roguish but lovable troublemaker who manages to suck the party into her past personal troubles despite their attempted aversion, etc)? It's not to say that these archetypes do not have potential to create interesting characters, but they are used so reliably, so often, and so without creative variation that they start to become worn and tired.

Why does every game have to have a large cast of characters, each of whom contributes constant commentary and has a side quest that may not be that interesting? I realize that from a gameplay standpoint having options is enjoyable, but when 15 characters all have to be integrated into the plot and have their own subplots, there is less time for detailed development of any individual character. I feel like I don't get to know half, or often, any of the characters really. Also, having 15 people all have to shoot some insight or witticism at the villain before the epic battle really drains the drama out of things by about the 3rd comment.

Why does every game have to have 500 hours of gameplay with endless dungeoncrawling side quests and bonus monsters? If the main quest didn't suck me in and have me hanging on the edge of my seat, why would I want to spend the next 80 hours of my life clearing extra difficult dungeons and collecting bizarre items?

Why does every game have to involve a vapid plot to destroy the world and a pulp comics style villain who sees fit to ignore the budding heroes or leave them in his "inescapable" death trap rather than actually do something intelligent? I think the epicness of plots can be a good thing, but I want an antagonist whom I get to know over the course of the game, who can elicit passion from the party and the player when immersed. I'm sure this is blasphemy to many, but Sephiroth is the perfect example. He's epic and cool, certainly, but in the end, is he much more than a pulp villain with a chic look? Do we really get to know him? He's silent, arrogant and possibly insane individual throughout the game, but he never shows any passion for what he does, any true antagonism for the party. What about him intrinsically gets Cloud and the player passionate? There are flashes of promise late in the game, but the contemporary(non-flashback) Sephy is flat and completely inhuman. If he didn't happen to be trying to blow up the planet, he would be a completely bland and uninteresting individual.

I'd love to see something, anything, done boldly differently. Something bold, something daring. Get up close with the hero and maybe just a few supports, really get to know the villain as a character, have characters truly evolve, blur the morality and constitution of the world so that you don't always run around helping every random village overcome their problems, have a plot that isn't just some abstract plot for world domination, make it personal. Concentrate on a story that will truly awe instead of 200 hours of repetitive and plotless sidequesting.

The first generation of RPGs introduced the world to games with an unprecedented level of depth and introduced games as a storytelling medium beyond a few screens of text, FF7 and Grandia brought the genre to a new level of epic plot and filled out worldbuilding.

When will someone be willing to step boldly outside the box and bring us the next era in RPGs? When will we get the Death Note of RPGs, not in copying the plot, but in the sense of a story with gravity and maturity that compels from beginning to end?

Games have tried different things, experimented with characters, plots, seriousness, levity, familiar and alien worlds, but to me, no one has really tried to boldly redesign the traditional J-RPG structure and brought that X factor to their game.

To put it into an anime analogy, to me, most of the J-RPG style games that are produced these days have a plot equivalent to Inuyasha, light, shallow fare with likable characters, vague villains and moralities, and cliche plots. I want to see the Trigun or Death Note of RPGs.

What do you guys think? Is there some game I maybe haven't played or am not giving due credit? Are my ideas all wrong, and replay value and party customization more important than story depth, or do they provide a different kind of depth? Is there a Hideo Kojima of the current J-RPGs? Have Bioware and other non-JRPG makers managed to pick up the slack?

try skies of arcadia. I liked it
you might also want to try Radiata Stories

I'd recommend Tales of Symphonia (GCN) and Golden Sun (GBA), because they both manage to avoid the pitfalls of the list for the most part (in the case of Golden Sun, it avoids about 99.999999...%).

Also, I heard that The Force Unleashed had a good story, although the game has some massive glitches that need to be worked out. ._.

For WoT purposes, I'm going to try and simplify your list:
1.) Stereotypes and generic plots
2.) Character types are used with little variation
3.) Large party of characters, each without much detail
4.) Over 9000 (sorry. -_-) hours of useless grind and sidequests
5.) Pulp comic book story to destroy the world
6.) Throwaway villain

First of all, remember that 99% of any thing is crap. With that aside, it looks to me like you need to play yourself some Xenogears, Xenosaga, and Odin Sphere.

Not an RPG but you really need to play Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem. The storytelling in that game is nothing less than spectacular.

Once you play it, you'll know what I'm talking about. Great game to boot too. Without a doubt one of the best titles in the Cube.

I second that!

Go with the This. ^
:D

Soul Nomad and the World Eaters

While not a true RPG, it has J-RPG themes. Its a tactics game much like ogre tactics.

The idea of the game is that Hero is possessed by an incredibly powerful demon who is struggling for control. Its set in a birthright-esque realm, where you actually kill the enemies repeatedly. Most the characters don;t get a sub-plot, but do have a reason to join you, though most the main characters are slightly buffed versions of creatable units.

The game offers 2 paths, which path is decided incredibly early, whether to try to devour the world with the demon, or try to save the world. While the game does rely heavily on twists rather then clever writing, there are some really neat character dynamics that occur.

The game itself, while being a tactics game, actually plays out more like disgaea. Most things are fully customizable. Also, it uses a strength weakness system, making it incredibly hard to have 1 or 2 strong units. This also makes battles a tad frustrating, as gypsies make the best unit leaders but are perhaps the worse unit in the game.

I can't speak for the other two, but Xenosaga 2 got on my nerves a bit. ._.
Xenosaga 1 is definitely worth getting, if only for that crazy Albedo.:lol:

Skies of Arcadia, Tales of Symphonia, and Xenosaga I have all played.

I wouldn't say that Skies or Tales really do anything to break out of the RPG cliches. Sure, they have their moments, but to me they are more cliched RPGs with good quality execution. How would you say they defy the norm and bring something compelling to the table?

Xenosaga certainly tried, I'll give them credit for that, but it had it's own problems. The plot was heavy handed and often nonsensical, and the characters didn't really do anything for me. It didn't help that the combat dynamics of Xenosaga don't measure up to most of the other RPGs out there.

Xenogears is on my list of games I need to play, and the other significant omission from the list of RPGs I have played would be Chrono Trigger.

You say 99% of all of this stuff will be crap, but look at Final Fantasy, supposedly the premier title of JRPGs. Shouldn't we expect more, considering all the time, money, and personel put into the creation of Final Fantasy, expected more from SquareEnix with FF10 and FF12. FF10 was full of plotholes, unfollowed leads, and missed opportunities, cursed with a poor combat system and held together by a few flashes of brilliance and an ending that isn't easy to forget. FF12 had an intricate and pretty solid plot, but serious character issues. Vaan, supposedly the main character, was only marginally relevant to main plot, and served mainly as a distraction from the interesting and appealing parts of the story. The stereotypes lined up pretty well for FF12 too(Bosche and Balthier hit theirs exactly on the head with no variation). I'm not saying that there games were failures, but can't we expect more from SquareEnix?

And more generally, what do you guys think makes a good plot, and why do so few RPGs make it there?

Definitly agree with you, Soul Nomad's story got me actually intrigued and wanting to know what was going to happen, sure, character development of other PC's aren't major, but it's enough to spark an interest.
And the gameplay? Awesome, but it has it's flaws.

@ WhiteLion: First, to answer your question. To me, a good plot is either philosophical, or it has 'good execution'. I like thinking (a fact demonstrated by my love of Eva) and so I naturally lean towards the Xenogears-type games. It might also be that JRPGs heavy in philosophy tend to lack pre-adult characters, emphasizing the maturity level. I can't really describe what 'good execution' is. I suppose it's when a tried-and-true formula is used and it's somehow better than all the cliche-ridden crap. An example of this for me would be Atelier Iris 2. Aside from getting rid of random encounters and actually adding strategy into the battle system, I can't really think of how a 'good' RPG would be made.

Now for everything else: Did you at least play through Xenosaga Episode 3? I also want to say that several all of your comments about it I'd love to argue with you about, but maybe another time. Considering that you said, in another post, how you didn't like GitS and it's philosophical basis, it's not surprising. I don't think you'll like Xenogears either in that case.

I would push for you to play Odin Sphere, but considering how you are judging all aspects of it, I better not. You'll also be likely to be disappointed by Chrono Trigger. Maybe you'll even be disappointed with Shin Megami Tensei games.

What are you looking for anyway? Grandia had a nice battle system, but the plot was simply above-average at best. So I don't think Grandia nor FF7 deserve to be affiliated with "an unprecedented level of depth". It just sounds to me that you have your expectations way too high.

I definitely tend towards mature and serious material. Philosophizing has its ups and downs. Trigun and Death Note were great anime series because of their philosophical aspects. They both presented moralities in which characters weren't merely fighting for some vague notion of good and truth, and the morality was not black and white, but rather blurred together and raised serious questions for the viewer. NGE, to me, goes the way of Xenosaga, having some potential and interesting ideas, but eventually drowning itself in a convoluted web of ambiguous and at times misapplied symbolism paired with heavy handed philosophizing that quickly devolves into drivel.

Good execution games also exist, and most of the RPGs I played and liked fall into this catagory: Grandia, Skies, certain FFs, etc. These games are worthwhile to play, and not by any means failures, but don't awe with their storylines.



I only played through Episode 1, and was tired of the game after that. Maybe Episode 3 is epic and amazing, but extreme improvement would be needed.

As for Ghost(the first movie), I think it asks a lot of pertinent questions, and the world it takes place in is an insightful and thought provoking place, but it fails on an important level: it asks important questions, but to me, it utterly fails at drawing you in and making you care about the answers. It's too close to reading a philosophy treatise: fine for thought, but not for storytelling.

Maybe my difference with you would be best summed up thusly: intelligence is important, but it is only half of what I care about. I also want a sense of passion and intimacy from plots, I want to be drawn to care about the characters and their struggles, truly be able to dislike the villains, not just be challenged to think, but to be immersed in the world and made to care about it.



Don't know until I've played them.



These games innovated in gameplay and worldbuilding, not plot.



That's the point of this topic. I'm not saying the games we're discussing are failures, many of them are quite good. I'm wishing for someone to create a modern masterpiece of the RPG genre, story wise, and observing that more daring innovations will be necessary to reach that level.

I guess our definitions of what is "drivel" are very different. Having actually beat the Xenosaga Trilogy, I think everything wraps itself up nicely. On the other hand, I see no philosophy in Death Note aside from the whole "let's kill criminals to make the world a better place" argument which quickly takes a back seat to Light's confrontations with L. If you took Light and placed him in a JRPG, he'd be one of those stereotypical, manipulative, psychotic, genocidal final bosses (someone like Sephiroth).

Daring innovations, huh ... I really don't know what else to say. The only recent 'innovative' games I can recall are all made by Nippon Ichi. This looks like a dead-end discussion if the bar is set so high.

Side Note: You could try Vagrant Story as well.

I don't know the entire Xenosaga trilogy, so I will stick to talking about NGE, probably the best example, to me, of philosophical anime gone wrong. NGE spend TONS of time talking about philosophy and bandying about poorly conceived symbolism(the Lance of Longinus does not make sense as a weapon, if you consider it's nature and the historical significance of its probably apocryphal discoveries and acquisitions.) However, when it comes to action, what does NGE have to offer? Shinji spends all his time agonizing in his fantasy world about how his father doesn't love him. Maybe it's been too long, but I thought the significance and meaning of the whole conflict of the show, humanity struggling for survival against the Angels, was obscured by Shinji's tortured and masochistic trips through fantasy land, in which philosophy is presented as long monologues and symbolic pseudo dream sequences.

In Death Note or Trigun, there is some limited discussion of philosophy, as you note, in Death Note, it mainly consists of the debating the justice of killing criminals. However, it's the actions of the characters that provide the interesting philosophy. The reaction of society to the rise of Kira: most of us probably hope that people would realize the injustice and fight against it, but most of society accepted it, and many actually supported Kira's brave new world.

The values conflict between Light and L goes beyond what they say about the justice of killing criminals, but how they handle themselves and treat those around them. Light, obviously, grows to regard lives as worthless and expendable, excepting his own, whereas L shows a great deal of trust in those who agree to work with him and is unwilling to gamble them. This is the very striking difference between L and Mello and Near who both, in their own way, view their underlings as expendable, and are very willing to abandon or gamble with their lives. Ironically enough, it is this trait that finally allows Near to defeat Light, and also what probably makes Near much less likable than L.

Light is an interesting villain because we get to see his evolution. He doesn't start as a megalomaniacal villain bent on bringing his dystopian vision upon the world. He's actually a pretty decent guy, and even throughout the series, he's sees himself that way and acts as such in public. He is even afraid at first of his own vision, but his power to pass judgment slowly makes him arrogant. At first he is sacrificing himself for the world, but soon becomes a god in his mind. Sephiroth may end up in a similar place, but we don't get to see him struggle and evolve, which makes him one dimensional.

Trigun's philosophical content is similar. It is rooted not in monologues and dream sequences, but rather the inherent conflict in Vash's desire to wage peace and not kill combined with the fact that, at times, it may be the most effective way to save innocent lives. Maybe this isn't very deep or important to you, but I think the show tests Vash's morals and resolve in a variety of different ways throughout the show, and climacticly in the last several episdoes.

Agreed. Wait....me thinking Xenogears is better than everything else? Too shocking?

@ WhiteLion: With regards to NGE, I never saw the Angels vs. Humans thing as the major point to the show. To me, it is an analysis of the psychological aspects of the characters set against a war-time-like backdrop with the 'philosophy' focused on humans as a whole.

As for Death Note and Trigun, that's not really philosophy (though that's a small part of it), but rather it's characterization. Certainly a character's philosophy about life is part of his/her personality, but it's hard to say that it's a philosophy all on its own. The 'philosophy' of the characters aren't really the major point, and they're only subtly touched upon. Code Geass has fairly similar characterization, but I wouldn't call it 'philosophy'.

I hate getting into the arguments like these, but its kind of to the point where I wonder if people are listening to themselves.

Go Nippon Ichi. Most Atlus games end up rocking.

Death Note is actually full of philosophy. It emphasizes the whole show and defines every characters motives. I'm actually not a huge fan of the show, but I have watched it all the way through and realize there are constant plays with philosophy of ethics. I mean, I could make a nice list of the top of my head of driving philosophies, in cluding, but not limited to, duty ethics, justice ethics, consequentialism, deonotlogy, kantism, persona (more psyche then philosiphy), rationalism, debates on free will and corruption, etc. I mean, good luck with finding that much in a video game.

Tri-gun was pretty hollow.

Xenogears had some cool concepts but it was executed from a psyche 101 perspective. There was some cool game mechanics I wish others would lift.


This I thought was less about philosophical content in games, and more about how varied they are from the norm. Megaten games, anyone? (Shin Megami Tensei was already mentioned, I know). There games are hard, but still fun, and enter a weird realm of thought, though never philosophy. It does get a little tired, since people in there games by and large act like they know there in a video game, besides persona 3, of course.