Transgender delima

I understand that point which was more or less what Lollikittie said. I understand people may feel like this or may feel like that but we can't be solipsistic bastards. This is a social context in which the hypothetical transgender person is interacting with potential mates. Sorry to sound like a biologist but a) we are animals too and b) I'm sick of the word «partner». So we have to be technical although I don't think that implies a disrespect toward the emotional side.

Again, I perfectly accept and can agree that some transgender are women with penises and they were women before they became «feminine». I think it was Chaz Bono who said something along the lines of «sexuality is between your ears, not between your legs» and it seems fine to me, although I'm not psychologist. But the social context point stands.

If you are a transgender person, someone approaches you, one thing leads to another and the discovery is a bad shock to him, it seems as though the transgender person was being dishonest. But no... People on Fakku keep insisting that it's «society's fault, everything bad is society, dude». It amazes me how the individual mind is what's important in a social scenario... And I'm the ignorant one...

Well, the word 'mate', to me, implies a more sexual relationship, whereas 'partner' implies a deeper emotional connection. And if we're looking at a promiscuous thing, then generally yes, the transgender person should be open about their gender to the potential suitors. I was suggesting that even if the transgendered individual is uncomfortable with people knowing their gender, then they should still probably tell someone they want to have an relationship with, because that is the societal norm. I'm not saying the societal norm is a bad thing, in fact it is probably the best thing for them to get the 'big thing' out of the way early, in case it breaks the relationship when they be are at a more intimate level, when they would be more hurt by it.

Really though, femininity is just something we commonly associate with women, not something that defines someones gender. I know some very feminine people who are perfectly confident being male. So I'm sure there are people who are women with penises who aren't feminine. This is my problem with the psychological concept of gender, there are no definitions for what makes someone a certain gender. There is with biological gender. This is why I'm not a fan of psychology.

Also, I believe, deep down, we are all solipsistic bastards at heart. And why shouldn't we be? We all do things because they make us happy, and don't do things that make us unhappy. In a societal context, however, people often forget that doing things that make you happy, may make others unhappy, and you may become unhappy as a result. So I don't believe it's thinking about others, but thinking about the longer term consequences of your actions that is what should be done.

The opening post talks about first dates and I think the discussion has been more or less on that realm. So I don't think we have any business going into emotional relationships because we are talking about a transgender person being honest and because, as we have established, it seems to make no difference.



I'm sure about this paragraph because you don't say much I disagree with on feminity but you start with «really though» which seems to be implying a disagreement... I didn't say feminity defined anything, I said the opposite.

I think your view on psychology of gender is misguided too although in a different way than Kittie's. The first objection would be that saying there are no definitions can be answered with the question: do you know there are NO definitions or are you not aware of the ones that exist? Second, by way of objection, is that you seem to prefer an outdated view of gender based on, as I've said before, wee wees and vjays.



In this discussion, there seem to be no long term consequences. We are talking about two people who met, one being a transgender and the other being in the dark about it. It seems fishy to go on about «doing what makes us happy» when in this case, it would be «lying about our biological background (perhaps for sexual gain)».

This conversation is quickly turning into a myriad or different layers of discussion, conceptual inconsistencies and backs and forths.

I'm not talking about if they have an emotional relationship. I'm talking about if they want an emotional relationship, or if they're just looking for someone to have sex with. It's not unheard of for people to date someone, have sex with them a few times, then leave and never make contact again. And it's equally not unheard of for someone to expect a relationship to end in marriage after the first date (or even before it).
In other words, "is the transgender person serious about the relationship?"



I misinterpreted your post then. I thought when you said "they were women before they became «feminine»" you were implying they always had a latent feminine side. My mistake.



'No definition' was a slight overstatement. There is a definition: "Gender refers to the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a person’s biological sex." It's just that this means the definitions are subjective, which means that someone who one person considers male may be considered female by another. Which leads to disagreements between people about their own and others genders.

So there is a definition, it is just that I feel it is grossly inadequate to describe states of gender. I'm sure you'd agree that 'attitudes, feelings and behaviors' are so variable that you cannot hope to separate every single combination into the groups of male, female or transgender, much less identify everyone as one of these from simple external observation.

I would prefer to abandon the concept of gender entirely to be honest. That way no-one would feel pressed to act a certain way because of what genitalia they have, or what genitalia they want to have. And to be clear, when I said 'biological gender', I actually meant 'biological sex' which is to do with what their chromosomes are, rather than external sex organs. And I'm only saying that that is generally simpler to understand, and less likely to offend people.



It makes more sense to lie then, if there are no long term consequences. If you tell them before sex, you risk missing out sex, and may feel rather humiliated if they do reject you. If you tell them after, you risk them being mad at you, and giving them a feeling of self-disgust. If you tell them during you'll have the worst of both previous scenarios, plus a sense of dissatisfaction if you don't finish off. If you lie, you both get sex, feel satisfied, and neither of you will feel bad about it (unless you feel bad for lying/withholding the truth).

If you ignore the long term consequences, things become a lot more clear cut to me.

That's the thing, even that question makes no sense here. But having read your whole post, I think I more or less get where you're going at. For now, though, the question doesn't matter. What we are talking about is if a transgender person should identify as such in a first date. The problem I saw with your last paragraph is that you think it is okay to lie for sexual gain. If I interpreted correctly, we are at violent disagreement there.



Well, didn't Facebook recently introduce like fifty new definitions of gender? I don't use Facebook myself but having seen the news piece covered in a scientific journal, I think I'll take it. So yes, there are tons of scientific definitions. If people don't feel okay in them or «offended» (which, as I said to Kittie, is the most overrated emotion ever) that's their own personal problem, not the entire world. And I say the entire world because both in this dating context and literally everything else, it matters what gender you belong to.

I don't know what gives with this generalized contempt towards labels... It seems as though everyone thinks labels were born so we could laugh when they were literally created to make things easy. Man, woman, gay, straight, 100% orange juice, 3% caffeine, may contain nuts. I dunno...



They may be clear cut but what is being cut is Ethics. The only way I conceive of a date between a transgender person and a random guy in which no talk of gender occurs is if, as I've said, they meet in some sort of dating website which identifies the transgender person as such.

You also seem to make a logical fallacy there. When you talk about telling them beore sex, the consequences you see are not having sex and feeling hummiliated. When you talk about 'after, you mention them being mad and feeling disgust. Why is the first scenario only focused on the bad things that happen to the liar? Isn't it possible that being lied to is a negative consequence on the other party? And isn't it possible that the guy will find out the transgender is a transgender during sex? If you are going to make the informal equivalent of logical truth tables, you should make them all.

Lastly, I really think you have to take up arms to defend why you think lying towards sexual pleasure is acceptable. If ignorance and pleasure are your main points then it seems to me you would have to say Oedipus was fine and dandy until he realized the woman he married was his mother.

Facebook? I don't really trust them as an authority on gender issues. Also, 'tons of scientific definitions' makes it even worse. Unless someone makes it obvious, which they usually won't unless asked, you'll have no idea what definition they're using, which just leads to confusion. And didn't you say previously that we have to consider the social elements, not just the individual mind, because I would argue that someone getting offended (by something many people do get offended by) is a social element.

Also, like my point on the topic of monster girls while back, I believe gender only matters if you think it matters. If I feel like I want to date someone, I will date them regardless of their gender. Even as a male who doesn't particularly find penis' attractive, it wouldn't stop me if they had one.



I'm fine with most labels. But I feel that with gender, it simply makes it more complicated. I think it's because it's an oversimplification of something which is only vaguely accurate to start with (by that I mean the assumption that people of the same gender all share similar traits).



First of all, I'd like to say that your opening sentence for this was brilliant.

The reason I only do the transgenders view for before is that there is no negative for the other person, unless they later feel guilty for their actions. In the after, the primary negative emotions for the transgendered individual stem from the negative emotions of the other person (i.e. they will be sad because they made the other feel bad). I included the other finding out during sex under being told during sex, because the likely consequences are the same.

And being lied to may be a negative consequence, but unless the person finds out that they have been lied to, they will be perfectly happy in their ignorance. They will feel like they got off with a member of the opposite (or same) gender, and probably be happy about that.

In response to your final paragraph, you'll notice what I said was that it 'makes more sense', not that it was morally acceptable. Logic and morality rarely go hand in hand, and are in stark disagreement in this instance (at least in my opinion, and yours it would seem). What I was doing with that was making the point that if you remove the implications of the long term consequences, the answer I arrive to is this, and that it is one which most would find unacceptable.

Going off of experience this is basically what happened in my situation.
It's not a good idea to always say it right off the the bat, but it would be a good idea to say it before things get too commited.

It can get nasty very easily.

I don't like or use Facebook either but I've known of that news from a serious scientific journal which made me look a bit into gender psychology. I said we have to consider social elements when it comes to ethics (i.e. sexual interactions with other people) and documentation (i.e. the gender your drivers license identifies you as, for example).

The point about gender being an important matter is, I think, something we more or less have to assume in a social scenario. If you are a transgender woman and you wanna go date someone, I think it is important they know just the same as it is important they know N other stuff.



Hopefully that is sarcasm...



That reminds me of, I think Barney Stinson, who argues that people don't get mad when they are lied to, just when they find out they've been lied to. Well, I think that would still be imoral because, as referenced in the Ring of Gyges, morality still exists, or at the very least, it should exist even when we think no one is looking. The other point is something I don't want to go into which would be something along the lines of other people knowing the guy had sex with a transexual and he making a fool of himself.

I seem to have made a mistake, you're right about that. But I still don't think it follows that all morality is to be in stark disagreement in this instance. If the people involved were looking at long term consequences, it would be stupid to lie about it. If they are not, you make the point that it makes sense for one person to be unaware if all they want is a good time.

I suppose that in an agressive «seduction game», if someone approaches a transgender under the impression she is a biological women (weird expression...), it is more or less is fault. But I think a transgender person approaching a person someone for sex or a relationship should be honest just as he/she should be honest about everything else. There almost seems to be an element of «Trojan Horsearism» to it.

I don't think gender should be on drivers license, because it's something that can change too easily. If someone decides they want to be a transgender, they then have to go through all those sorts of things and change their gender, which is a lot of hassle, and can add to any stress they may already have from the change. If they really want to have something, they should use biological sex, because that is much more difficult to change, and is something which takes planning, giving them time to sort out all these things out.

But then again, what's on your drivers license isn't exactly involved in a lot of social situations, so other things, like gender on facebook, should remain as gender, because that is more important in that context.



Sadly no, I actually laughed at it. But then I'm kind of weird.

It reminds me of when my old chemistry teacher used to make jokes that only him and I understood, and we would chuckle with each other while the rest of the class sat in awkward silence.



Again, I'm not saying it's moral. Just that it causes no negative emotions in either participants. And I would say other people knowing that they was transgender would be under long term consequences. It probably also wouldn't be that bad unless they were the type to flaunt their sexual adventures to their friends.

Although I thought of an interesting question to pose to you. What if the two people participated in sexual intercourse whilst drunk (or similar), and the transgender did not inform them of their gender having been to out of it to remember. Should they then tell them, and potentially cause them emotional grief, or just leave without telling them, and spare them that emotion?



You make a good point. But then again, if I go up to someone with such intentions, I would probably assume they know I was guy. Most people would make a similar assumption. So what if the transgender person has assumed that their gender is known? It can be slightly hypocritical to say it's their fault, unless they seem very much like another gender, or it happens to them a lot. I don't think it would be anyone's fault in this instance, just an unfortunate occurrence.

I don't even drive and I'm procrastinating taking my drivers license because I'm not Ikari Shinji to get inside a huge mechanical beast and control it, making it work at tremendous speeds. Anyway... I just said drivers license as an example of a social document. Not trying to be specific about it, just a small example to take on a larger thing which would be something along the lines of bureaucracy.



Heck, I dunno... We've gone off the deep end with this post. It was just about whether a transgender person should identify him or herself from the get-go. This makes it much more complicated... At that stage, even if drunk, the other guy (let's make him a guy and the transgender a male-to-female, just for clarity) should have at least gotten an idea. If he didn't, then what I would say would happen, regardless of morality, is that she wouldn't go through the trouble of letting him know if they never saw each other again.



I make a good point with two very annoying mistakes: «women» as opposed to «woman» and «is» as opposed to «his»... I hate not having time to proof read posts...

Well, that comes back to the original question at least. The most beautiful transgender I've ever seen would definitely have to identify herself as such because the only way you could see would be by close inspection. If you saw her in a bar, you could be 101% sober and you would not know.

The problem with that is that you seem to be talking about perception and initial observations which can go very, very, very wrong. If you go up to a biological girl (again with the weird expression... I don't wanna use «real» girl either...) and say that you have a thing for transgender people... Yikes.

I'm starting to think I made another mistake which was taking out the long term consequence thing... Or to be specific, make it so, at the very least, they plan to see each other again. In that case, I think the transgender person should let the other one know the same way, and I think I have used this example somewhere, maybe even here, I would let a very religious girl know I am an atheist. It doesn't have to be the very first thing I say but sort of a «just so we're on the same page...» I also think the transgender person should call him or herself as such as to attract the kind of people who are into transgender people. The same way, and I know I've used this, I would only want to attract girls and let guys know they are wasting their time. I think a transgender person who hides it as someone was more or less saying is simply doing him or herself a disservice as well as others who might, as we've pointed out, get involved with him/her, more or less, by accident.

Seriously though, why is gender on drivers licenses? Even if it was biological sex, what use is that? Are they going to pull down your pants on the roadside and check? But anyway, this is off topic now...



That is probably what I would do as well. I'd hope that if he was too blind drunk to notice, he wouldn't be able to remember that we even had sex, and just leave before he wakes up.

And I'm now going to go even deeper off the deep end, and ask what if the guy wakes up first and realizes she is transgender?



That's very true. With the best transgender people, it is impossible to tell that they are not what they appear to be, short of taking a gander at their gonads (or lack thereof). With these people, it's probably a fair point to say they should not assume others know. But with some, it is fairly obvious that they are transgender. Yet some people are very stupid, and it is entirely possible to not realise.



I understand the point, but where do you bring it up? If you bring it up too early, they may laugh at you if they weren't trying to pick you up, if you do it too late, they may get angry that you hadn't told them yet. And how do you bring it up? Saying "just so we're on the same page" seems like an incredibly casual way of introducing the subject. I'm not particularly good at social situations, so I would probably miss the timing and fret over a way to bring it up, possibly leading to me being to afraid to bring it up in any way that isn't perfect. I'm sure there are transgender people like that too, who would struggle to get it out.

The first split would be simply whether he's okay with having had sex with a transgender and whether he's not okay with it. The thing is that, even if he's okay with it, he may not be okay with her not telling him. I don't think I'm seeing this has a penis or no penis, it's just a matter of honesty, I feel. At least in most cases, I feel what hurts people is having been lied to. In this case you can say it was not a problem since it worked out but you could also say there was a problem because there was no need to lie.

I don't know why and I may be going even more off the deep end but as I write this, Kurt Cobain's quote came to me: «I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not». Not sure it it applies or if it does it sounds cheesy but I think, in simple terms, it is always dishonest to hide a potential deal breaker. And maybe it's more simple to me because as I've pointed out with the religious example, being transgender is a potential deal breaker just like tons of other stuff are.



If it can be awkward or difficult is a different point. Kleptomaniacs may find it very difficult to avoid stealing, I dunno, ash trays but it doesn't give any excuse. I'm not saying you were implying that it does but it seems like a paragraph I can't avoid and yet, can't face.

Going yet again to the same example, if a religious girl is interested in me, I might risk a very good and somewhat rare, I'll admit, chance but I still think it should come up as it could be a deal breaker for her.

In my mind I was thinking about the situation still being the same as before, where they were both drunk. In which case it puts the question of whether they were dishonest in not telling them into doubt. And some people in that situation might think they were too drunk to remember it even if they were told they were transgender.



Personally, I feel I would rather be loved for who I am not. But I guess most people would think the other way, in which case it gives all the more reason to tell them. But even if they didn't think that way, it's still better to say something.



Maybe not an excuse, but if someone is medically diagnosed with Kleptomania, then that would be a perfectly reasonable explanation for their behavior, and so long as they understood that they shouldn't have done it, I wouldn't be particularly mad.

But not being able to bring something up is not something with a medical cause, so it does fall down to them to take the blame if it goes wrong because of their 'dishonesty'. I just think it would be mean to get really mad at them for it, if they really wanted to bring it up, but couldn't do it.

And I think religion is easier to work into conversation, because it has a lot more apparent indicators in social situation. For instance, if the girl says that you have to say grace before you eat, then that helpfully brings up an opportunity to tell her you're an atheist. Those situations are much less common for transgender issues.

There's something bothersome for quite a while... Why transgerdering would be an issue ? It's the same as saying it's "abnormal" or shall I say "wrong" ?...

For example, there are people who don't like red hair. So what ? It's their taste and we can't help. Same about the genders.

It's going pretty "far" on the sole hypothetical basis, resulting in such complicated scenarii...


How about any trangendered one, who would happens to cross this thread, to testify about his/her own experience ? Should be instructive :-)

Because some people are assholes who do actually think it's wrong.

Other than that, it's like someone who's completely heterosexual refusing to date people of the same gender, not because they dislike that gender, but because they don't find it pleasant to have physical intimacy with that gender, for whatever reason.

Some people do see gender as something like hair color, i.e. they have a preference but it's not that huge of a deal if someone has a different color. But for others, gender is a very important thing in relationships, and they will simply refuse to date anyone not of the gender they want.

Believe me, I do know people for whom some hair colors are a big no no :-/

Its a hard delima, you don't wanna tell it before because people can be judgmental before knowing you, but it is kind of rude to lie about your gender.

I think in some far alternative universe if the me would be transgendered I might rather boast about. Maybe I'm a bit dense about behaving the way people expect ?...

Well. I don't get it. Why hidding something you should / must / can't not be proud of. As for the harmful people, there are laws to defend yourself against such nuisance.

Damned. They go through all that stuff to be their true self, then they would have to stop being honest once they reach that stage ? The hell ??? 8-/

Because you could get called a weirdo/blablah. It could get ugly on work/life.

Also, if you change sex it's because you're not comfortable with your biological gender right? Them if a woman feels like she should be a man, what benefits does she get from wearing a plate saying "I was a woman lel" ?

That's why there are laws to protect from those discriminations.
Make others respect you otherwise don't even dare to transgend to begin with.




He would neither gain nor lose anything by just saying that aloud. After all it is not a venereal disease.