[Locked] Do you believe religion should even exist?

You're being too biased towards one particular aspect when you do that though.

All you're doing when you do it like this is trying to scapegoat Religion. Don't do that, actually state and attack the real situation rather than trying to scapegoat through another.

People are always the problem. Isn't that the most obvious thing? That is one of the reasons why I dislike religion discussion. Everything people find wrong with religion is with the people who abuse it. Not the actual belief system. People blame the church and stuff. Whenever I hear someone bitching about it, its usually about how the church is corrupted. Not actually about how the beliefs are. Then again the people who usually bitch about it are ex-religion people.

edit:

when someone tries to point out something they find stupid in the actual belief its only to show their displeasure with the religion itself

Yeah, that's why I dislike biased statements like these. It's always about trying to scapegoat problems onto one thing, frequently Religion.

I think the ex-religion thing is mostly just insecurity. People just want to reaffirm to themselves that they made the 'right choice' in the grand scheme of things and to do so to a lot of them means to 'show others they are choosing the wrong choice.'

My two cents.

Religion is fundamentally divisive. I know this from personal experience, and the experiences of others, in that people of seperate religions have a hard time cooperating with eachother, and those who do not have a religion are almost FORCED to be otrocized by those who follow religions.

The basic facts of all religions are, "We are right, and those who don't believe as we do are wrong." And before someone tries to quote this and say, "But atheists do that too!" No, in reality, we don't. In fact, it is atheists who say, "I'm comfortable with NOT knowing, and instead searching for what's right."

Muslims go to rallies and protests and shout that Islam will one day take over the world. Christians talk about how those who aren't christians aren't true americans. Hindus talk about the heathens that don't accept their way of thinking that will not be 'truly blessed' by Lord Vishnu. Buddhists are a little more accepting as long as you believe in your own god, but also accept their moral philosophy. Taoists ostricize those who act on passion, even if your act of passion saves lives. Jains condemn those who do not respect life to the level they do.

But the most common thing about all these religions? Their teachers, and some of their followers are constantly trying to get everyone else to think the way they do, because ,"You're wrong, but we love you anyway."

My father hasn't spoken to me since I became an atheist. My mother refuses to seak to me about anything except my job, and I've been pulled aside at work for being 'disrespectful' of other's religions, just from discussin them, and not believing they're correct.

That's not to say if there was one religion we were all united under, the problems of religion would go away. Inevitably even when one joins a religion, there are subsets of those religionsthat argue with eachother, arguing that their sect is 'more right' than the other sects. Because that's what the religions force you into. Once you decide to become a christian, for instance, you have to make a decision as to what KIND of christian you are, because all of the sects think they're right, and the others are wrong.

Religion promotes dogmatic thinking, and retards progress. It causes people to accept things as they are because it is their gods' will.

Not only that, but ot's only religion that can convince you of the wildest of ideas. That virgins await martyrs in heaven, and that paradise is sitting around and worshipping god 24/7, or even that one needs to STOP asking questions and simply 'have faith' that they're right.

A theist tried to get me to accept faith as a viable way to discern truth from fiction by using this example : "I put a coin in a box, and put the box in a cave. Now if I were to go up to you, and ask you if there's a coin in a box in a cave, just based off of that question, and not knowing I put one there, what would you say?" I said "I would shrug and say I don't know, but the probability is extrmely low." The theist responded, "See? You'd be WRONG." and I looked at him with a far off look, and said, "...but I would be intellectually honest." He simpyl shrugged and said, "It's better to simply believe everything until they are disproven, it's safer that way, you can't be wrong."

To which I said, "If I put a coin in a box in a cave, and there were 10 caves, and I asked if you believed there was a coin in a box in the caves, and you said 'yes' you'd be wrong, 9 out of 10 times." He then laughed and said, "But I'd still be right once. that's all that matters."

I stared at him in disbelief...this is the kind of thinking that religion brings one to. this is the kind of acceptance of the strangest things, the most colloquially unacceptable of answers, that religion leads one to.

There was a quote. I don't recall who said it, but I'm inclined to believe Bertrand Russell. "Good people do good things, and bad people do bad things, but to get a good person to do bad things, that takes religion."

Philosopher Freeman Dyson says, "Yes, but to get bad people to do good things, that too takes religion."

Incorrect Mr. Dyson, as there's not a single positive benefit of religion that can be observed that CANNOT also be gained from purely secular means. It does NOT take religion to make bad people do good things.

Bottom line. Religion asserts answers it has no way of knowing, and condemns those that don't accept them.

I prefer a freethinking way of looking at the world, an investigative way...a Richard Feynmann way.

Yeah I agree. A good example of that would be that one episode of southpark... or my mom...

@lundi

TLDR

ok I will write this only once....
People see religion with their own eyes and try to display that religion as some sort of symbol to represent that what the people wanna believe in...
The real problem in our religion today is.. that we are not on a same page and nobody wants to agree to the other persons idea on how things work but rather try to be aggressive and force their ideas in and thus splitting up the party...
and those the party splits up and form their own ideas in that religion...
lets say this for an example....
4 muslim brothers, calm, aggressive, love and hate
They share their ideas but disagree on it and split up...
they make their own families and thus building their own tribe, and the next generation follows the teachings and the ideas of the tribe leader..
Calm teaches his tribe about staying calm in EVERY situation..
Aggressive teaches his tribe to fight in EVERY situation..
Love teaches his tribe to reason and compromise in EVERY situation..
Hate teaches his tribe about hating a person if they do not follow their ideals..
once these 4 tribes meet, people will explain their beliefs and eventually argue about which ideals are better and ending up in a war for their ideals...

Many years later those tribes still exist and spread their ideals around the globe which is why many muslims cannot agree one another based on their ideals....

I hope this is a good example of what I REALLY mean

So far I know there are Sunni, Shejiten, Aleviten and many more...
God has mentioned this to his creations ,, also written in the books (Thanks teacher)

Yeah, that is a very good example of someone trying to find faults in something because they want to feel they are making the right choice.

If you were honestly happy with not knowing, you wouldn't find it necessary to 'educate others'.

You're just lying to yourself.

Wouldn't that simply just be a part of the whole "Finding others who think the same as you do thus making you not wrong for changing?"

The TLDR version is simply this:

Religion is inherently divisive, encourages dogmatic thinking, useless, and causes good people to do bad things. I don't like it.

Isn't that just biased opinion? Isn't the true meaning of religion is to give people a moral center and help those who have given up hope and is a spiritual tool to help them get through hardships?

Dogma's and laws and traditions are created by the people who will interpret the teachings how it benefits them and not the majority.

Then again you go believe what you will.

I apologize when I didn't mention the WHOLE thing....
but now you know but I never find faults in things....
I only mentioned the small stuff but you have to read the whole thing to understand my words...
picking words out of a sentence isn't the best way to use it as an argument...

Takeria I still find your arguments a little harsh but it seems it's my fault for not laying out things that we all could understand...

but Now I did and it should leave us to understand each other


Religion is one of the things based on how you understand the message god has given us...
Sure there are ideas out there who forces our way of thinking, but it does evident that this is true, because people also mention them being free when practicing religion..
But then again this topic isn't something to force ones idea into, we talk about it and thats that....

Yes, very biased. And this is coming someone claiming that atheists don't preach or try to push opinions on people.

So try not to drown in the hypocrisy.

That how everyone is. Everyone wants other to think the way they do so they have someone to understand them and talk to.

Its the one's that don't stop that get annoying and oppressive. Don't get me wrong there are people like that in every group. They don't on cares if they are hypocrites... Its not even worth having have intellectual discussions with those people. Seeing as they will just ignore your thoughts and try to make it so they are absolutely right.

Though it is funny how people will say the same thing to you when you do the whole "I am right and you are wrong" thing in other miniscule situations. I mean I would have actual evidence in those occasions... Just saying its funny how people will make the comparison.

Yeah, it's fine if you want people to know your thoughts and beliefs about things. Often times, people will welcome a change in thinking if they are open minded enough.

But too often I've seen people who don't want to share it, they actually want to replace other people's beliefs with it completely.

Because they somehow 'know' they are right about something that is impossible to know.

I've seen it from every side. It's not what you believe that makes you think a certain way. It's how open your mind is. Religion doesn't subject people to any more close mindedness than Atheism or anything else does.

The same sorts of divisions exist on EVERY side.

Everybody has their opinion about this stuff and we cannot take their opinions and beliefs and use it against them...
and yes there are people who will interpret the teachings to benefit themselves and not the majority because they wanna be some sort of leader ....

And there are people who dont follow the rules about religion and then later becomes a issue and then the whole world goes haywire just because a few thousand decided to change the ideals a bit and that how we all ended up in this discussion... see where im getting at...
sorry for my rude words..
But there are actually assholes out there who intentionally wants to corrupt the religious system and confuse the peoples beliefs and thus making it hard to ever see eye to eye....

Exactly I don't think anything else conclusive can be said after this statement.

@legend: It takes you awhile to type doesn't it?

I agree...
after all this is just a discussion and that's that.
it doesnt take a while to type... im chatting with some babe in facebook (since I do have a life) and im watching a few episodes of Gosick XD
Im not a fast typer and sometimes there doesnt appear any new notifications....
that is why i didnt respond so quickly XC...........

It is opinion. It's opinion based on fact. If you had nbothered to read my long post you'd know that my father and mother have distanced themselves from me simply because I have become an atheist. Not only that, but I know many others who have gone through similar things. The reason is simply this, from a letter from my father "I cannot associate with you anymore. You are of the devil. I shall pray for you."

The basic tenets of religion is that everyone NOT a part of your religion are wrong. you're right in that religions try to give a moral center, and they DO this by assrting that THEIR version of morality is the only right one, and that those that don't share your morality, are wrong, or evil. That's devisive. It's a double edged sword "Here's a morality. Don't question it, and if you find people who don't share it, they're WRONG."

As far as hope? I don't feel false hope takes a good place of real hope, that can be gathered empirically. I don't see how spiritual tool does anything either, as I personally don't see any such thing as anything 'spiritual', nor a reason to believe in them. No, secular sciences do a far better job of helping people through hardships, and it can be SHOWN that they work. Psychology, neuroscience, medicine, and all the published papers of the fields.

Edit: To Takerial: I've never claimed atheists, nor myself aren't bias. So no, I'm not being hypocritical. I'm bias towards my experience, and my observations, and I'm also bias towards the truth. I'm also bias AGAINST unbacked bullshit.

@lundi

ok let me restate what was said before but as an example.

You cannot castrate a computer because of a malfunction within a small part of the whole.

Just because you had to deal with people with narrow views and mindsets doesn't mean everything related to that is wrong.

He really likes to use the word fact a lot. This is based on fact, this is based on fact.

A biased opinion based on certain facts is still a biased opinion.

Making accusations while ignoring that they can be applied to the position you hold.

Good job being hypocritical again.