[Locked] The reason I'm not an athiest.

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Spoiler:
Carthagian wrote...
Pocru wrote...
...now, Im not a religious person by any definition. I get mad at most all of the catholic subbranches, Its getting harder and harder to view Islam impartially, and I just dont agree with all of the views of most every religion. There are contradictions and things that are unfair, and just plain ridiculous.

...but I'm not an atheist. I believe in god, but only for one reason, really. I've heard all of the atheist arguments, and none of them have ever addressed this, so Im curious if any of the many atheists on this site might have an idea.

The reason I'm not an atheist is because it had to start SOMEWHERE.

All of the theories behind man's creation, really...

like, for the big bang. What first created that atom that exploded to create all life? How did that thing just appear?

that's the biggest and only real convincing argument I have for the existence of god. I'd like to hear some people's theories opposing it.

thanks!


Okay im qouting pocru but also person dude too. think of God as the light or the great king who brought order to the chaos that is the nothingness that existed before he created the Heavens and we are not sure when God created us but he DID CUZ WE ARE HERE and he had to be all powerful because though we are fucked up we are supersmart powerful and vastly large yet minutely small in the vast universe. Oh and by the way there was technically a beginning when time was created as before the creation of time nothing as paralility or set corolatation of order existed in order to create said ability or set purpose if you will that is another reason i say God is all powerful as it would take almighty to conquer antithesis

GameON wrote...
La_Mangouste wrote...
I often read people giving the same old arguments "If god exists why he doesn't punish criminals and let children die?" and other moral questions. But it's not really relevant.
Expecting that a lone and almighty entity follow a moral system is foolish. Moral purpose is to set laws to help people living together without it turns to a total bloody mess. An alone and almighty entity has no points to follow any rule or social code. And you can't neither expect an almighty being thinks in the human way we define thinking, so refuting god existence by pointing moral consideration is not the best argument.
But it's also inappropriate to consider god do miracles. If a god exist, it's very unlikely he care about human more than about anything else he "created". Perhaps miracles exist but there is no evidence there are directly related to faith in a god. I'm pretty sure atheists or animists experience what we name miracles too.
There is chances that if a god exist we are to him what bacterias are to us, living in it and unnoticeable most of the time.

I'm agnostic by the way, not preaching for any side so.


"What is good or evil? How can God pass judgment on those who are evil, when its not God that has decided what is good or evil but society itself?"

I ask you, how can God pass judgment on criminals when it is society that has labeled them "criminals" not God.


to qoute you both God does care and he does see wrong and it is by his means that truth could be defined. While God did create right and wrong the need for said laws was the chaos that was before creation. those laws are set into place in order to keep chaos from reigning again!! but on the other hand God sees that we cannot and will not ever attain perfection or order by regulation or logic they are merely tools. this is why he sent his son to die for all of us and i mean everyone. murderers rapist, whiteliars, thieves, you name it!! because God does hate all fault and sin but he sees that the only way truly handle it is not punishement but forgiveness but you must accept the gift he gives or it sits before you unopened. those who donot shall be thrown into the nothingness of hells fire and true oblivion theough never ceasing in agony while those who accepted his gift will attain perfection and reign with him in heaven over all!!! please send a personal message to me if this answers your questions!!!!

One lat thing before i log off. ROMAN CATHOLOCISM IS NOT CHRISTIANITY IT IS A CORRUPTION OF IT!!! SERIUOSLY LOOK UP THE ROMAN CATHOLIC HISTORY ITS FUCKED UP BADLY!!!


I don't really have time to respond to all of that, one thing I'd just like to point out is that all modern Christianity is an adaption of Catholicism. Which you'll probably try to deny, but you can't, since you would have to deny a large portion of the Bible in order to do so.
Jesus of Nazareth has some pretty groovy ideas and all, but no Christian lives their lives according to just that.
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Boroko wrote...
Do you mean miracles are some kinda magic force/god power? I rather call it luck. Because miracles often is some power one help you. Like i have a friend that blame god for a friend survive an illness(miracles). And it sounds like "miracles" are stealing the achievement the doctor did do under the operation. Can we just say that we humans are it own success. And sometime we do something that just did so we survive that car accident.


I didn't give any definition of miracles. I just stated what most people call miracles is not discriminatory to the worship or lack of worship of those concerned. For what I'd say even animals experience what most people name miracles. I personally doubt faith is anyway involved in that sort of phenomenons, and supernaturals forces probably aren't neither. I suppose we just lack the understanding of the biological/physical/chemical processes.


GameON wrote...
"What is good or evil? How can God pass judgment on those who are evil, when its not God that has decided what is good or evil but society itself?"

I ask you, how can God pass judgment on criminals when it is society that has labeled them "criminals" not God.


Was my point, good or evil is a human consideration. There is no such good or evil in instincts. Nevertheless instinctive choices are not always the best choices as instincts are not designed to solve complicated problems we encounter in our (annoyingly?) sophisticated modern society.


Hinata`s Pimp AKA lil`Von wrote...
Well im not an athiest im a southern babtist christian, bum bum bum buuuuuuum!!!
(not a very good one,but at least im not jehovahs witness lulz) any way the only reason i beleive is because thats how i was raised and beleving isnt going to hurt me right? if theres nothing afterdeath than hey it doesnt matter right. but if haven hell pergutorty and all that good shit really does exist than ill be better off than you athiest lulz.


If you chose the wrong religion and afterlife is ruled by the god(s) of any religion previously persecuted by catholics you're in much more troubles than atheists.
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Christianity has changed in the last 100 years. It has gone from science vs God to more of how God exists in science.
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first of all, hello everyone at FAKKU :), this is my first post here and i hope it´s not the last one :(

back to the topic: first of all, i'm not an athiest. I believe that "god" (or some other superior being) exist, but i don't support any religion.

in my opinion, religions intimidates me a little because the effect that could cause
in the people.

For example: the mayans and aztecs sacrifice countless people in the name of their gods. the catholic church itself killed thousands of "heretics" in the dark ages because they were against the "word of god", and the islam insentives it's followers to bring a holy war to the no believers (although this is because of a missunderstanding on a verse in the coran)

but that doesn't mean i hate religion, because they really helps people when they need some spiritual guidance, but some of them just can't live out of what his religion says turning them into zealots who can do whatever his/her god tells them


long story short: i believe in god, but i don't need to follow any religion to know that some superior being exist

PD: sorry for the crappy english, because it's not my native language ;), and by the same i can justify about the fanatism of the people to their religion, because my country is very (VERY) catholic and i've see what people can become following a religon like blind zealots (spooky) :)
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acron trust me those that yu are seein are fanatcs just that more hot air than faith. I too GREATLY DISAPPROVE of Catholicism and its codes and all its bullshit. don't give up on faith, God or religion. Try just Christianity. and by the way all Christianity is when you look at it in the simplest is accepting that you have fault and need God to fix them and having faith that he will take(remove the sin from you) care of them and reward that faith with perfection and eternal life.
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Alright. I guess I would have to say I really just don't care. Because if you go back to the beginning there is always SOME sort of infinite existence. One thing has existed forever. Be it God or an atom it's been there since the unfathomable beginning of time, which in itself contradicts the idea of infinity, and that's all I need to know.

I'm here.
You're here.
Deal with it.

As for what happens after we die, (i.e. the reason religion exists), I've come to terms with the fact that there is NOTHING and I mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING after you die. No more you. No more thought. Nothing. I think therefore I am. I am not, therefore I do not think. While simple, it's still horribly difficult to wrap you're mind around the fact that something can end completely because we have memories. Despite something being no more, we remember them and thus they live on in our thoughts. But the thought of not having thoughts...is hard to think about.

I guess that last paragraph was a little redundant...>.>
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lol I have lot of mixed beliefs but all and all umm I believe in The Lifestream XD and I also believe that theirs some sort of higher power and it wants us to be happy and to live life well ^^ simple but ah wells I'm mostly spiritual than religious like I actually kinda believe in ghosts and that the afterlife is what we want it too be ^_^ optimistic that I am.
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Carthagian wrote...
acron trust me those that yu are seein are fanatcs just that more hot air than faith. I too GREATLY DISAPPROVE of Catholicism and its codes and all its bullshit. don't give up on faith, God or religion. Try just Christianity. and by the way all Christianity is when you look at it in the simplest is accepting that you have fault and need God to fix them and having faith that he will take(remove the sin from you) care of them and reward that faith with perfection and eternal life.


Or he could try atheism or at least stay agnostic and not define himself by his believe in one thing.
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I believe that modern religions were founded upon the thoughts that people should lead better quality lives, and then the very people that the God in these religions would smite noticed that the system could be exploited and did so, twisting it.

For example, the Romans became dominantly Christian because captured Christians refused to fight in the Colosseum and instead let themselves get gutted because someone told them they'd go somewhere nice. It is the very fanaticism people in religion say ruins it that started it. I doubt many modern Christians would let themselves get mauled by a lion.
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The christian's didn't refuse to fight in the colosseum, they just got slaughtered because they were playing with a loaded deck. They were a persecuted cult that people didn't care about, so they slaughtered them as entertainment.
The reason Rome converted is because Emperor Constantine was going to a battle he knew he couldn't win, but he listened to a couple of christian guys who said to paint a cross on each soilder's shield. Then before the battle, Constantine wrote in his journal that a giant star shined in the shape of a cross before the battle. The Romans won that battle and gave God the credit. Constantine then did a bunch of thing to make christianity a respected and official religion of Rome, built the big churches in cities like Constanople (now modern day Istanbul). However, even while doing all these pro-christian acts, such as stopping the death matches at Colessuems, Constantine himself never converted to Christianity.

However, the story of Muhammad, the islamic prophet, is also similar. He had fought with people who were of pagan and polythic beliefs for a while. Eventually all his enemies gathered and attacked him. His force of 1,000 men defeated the enemey force 10 times their size, thus legitimizing his claim to be a prophet. He made islam the law of the land, and only people who worshipped one god (jews, christians) were not forcefully coverted.
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La_Mangouste wrote...

I didn't give any definition of miracles. I just stated what most people call miracles is not discriminatory to the worship or lack of worship of those concerned. For what I'd say even animals experience what most people name miracles. I personally doubt faith is anyway involved in that sort of phenomenons, and supernaturals forces probably aren't neither. I suppose we just lack the understanding of the biological/physical/chemical processes.

Okay.... Sorry then. Most of my post was that i want to explaining my tough of people believe in miracles.

God91125 wrote...
I also believe that theirs some sort of higher power and it wants us to be happy and to live life well ^^


I just want to quote this phrase. If there where a higher power that wants us to live happy he is ether: Blind, evil ore lost control.

But God91125 and other. In my sight i don't care if you believe what so ever...as long i can live with my non believe. I think that is most of the atheist also think. But i like to discus this like places like this :D So let go further with the words
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Boroko wrote...
La_Mangouste wrote...

I didn't give any definition of miracles. I just stated what most people call miracles is not discriminatory to the worship or lack of worship of those concerned. For what I'd say even animals experience what most people name miracles. I personally doubt faith is anyway involved in that sort of phenomenons, and supernaturals forces probably aren't neither. I suppose we just lack the understanding of the biological/physical/chemical processes.

Okay.... Sorry then. Most of my post was that i want to explaining my tough of people believe in miracles.

God91125 wrote...
I also believe that theirs some sort of higher power and it wants us to be happy and to live life well ^^


I just want to quote this phrase. If there where a higher power that wants us to live happy he is ether: Blind, evil ore lost control.

But God91125 and other. In my sight i don't care if you believe what so ever...as long i can live with my non believe. I think that is most of the atheist also think. But i like to discus this like places like this :D So let go further with the words


Hahaha in some cases I also believe that that higher power might be evil aswell 0-0 I really don't take religion too seriously and sorry if my user name offends anyone XD made it as a gamertag for xbox live and the rest is history. XD I wish the world didn't have all the pressure to believe in something :/ I mean come on I played FFVII and I choose The Lifestream!
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i emplore all of you whether athiest or not to please not look at God as evil. and see that it is our own fault that has cuased this great choas now a days. but also see that God is no minor being or weak. he is POWERFUL. And also that when god blesses nations or people unbelievers recieve part of that blessing as way of association with believers. say a believer gets a huge growth of crops. Pagans and the like share in that by association. but alos know that God despises and yet cares deeply about those who do not believe in him. Despise at their ignorance and true deep hurt in that their is nothing he can do for them if they do not see him. not that he can't but shall not...as a show of power to the unbelieving is the same as giving pity upon animals...pointless.
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Carthagian wrote...
i emplore all of you whether athiest or not to please not look at God as evil. and see that it is our own fault that has cuased this great choas now a days. but also see that God is no minor being or weak. he is POWERFUL. And also that when god blesses nations or people unbelievers recieve part of that blessing as way of association with believers. say a believer gets a huge growth of crops. Pagans and the like share in that by association. but alos know that God despises and yet cares deeply about those who do not believe in him. Despise at their ignorance and true deep hurt in that their is nothing he can do for them if they do not see him. not that he can't but shall not...as a show of power to the unbelieving is the same as giving pity upon animals...pointless.


It was hard, but I managed to read it all....

Also I find it amazing that to you, the statement that "God exists" is simply true with no need for justification. An axiom, huh?
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100%. I've seen things happen that are mathematical impossiblities and things that have shook me to my core. not only that but do u have any idea just how much of a mathematical impossiblility we are in of our selves! Not even 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 years could so much as possibly yield a simple protein chain of which we are made up of(trillions by the way) so yes without a shadow of a doubt. not to mention things are just too orderly to have happened by chance and the intricacy is far too complex(which is a showing of How truly incredible He is!
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I'm sorry, but it only took roughly 4.5 billion years to get where we are, not 999whatever stupid number you put up. Nothing is impossible, only improbable. Also, in no way are the events that happened "orderly". It only seems that way because we observed them that way. The universe is pretty damn chaotic. If the chain of events hadn't happened the way they had, we simply wouldn't be here. Or maybe we'd have been a younger species. Or older. Maybe C H O N wouldn't have been our primary biological make up. The point is, evolution took a foothold on this planet; and through a series of mishaps, we came out of it all. Woot! Go us.
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Carthagian wrote...
100%. I've seen things happen that are mathematical impossiblities and things that have shook me to my core. not only that but do u have any idea just how much of a mathematical impossiblility we are in of our selves! Not even 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 years could so much as possibly yield a simple protein chain of which we are made up of(trillions by the way) so yes without a shadow of a doubt. not to mention things are just too orderly to have happened by chance and the intricacy is far too complex(which is a showing of How truly incredible He is!


Ummm....you really haven't heard of what they call natural selection, do you? I lol'd to see someone still using the design vs chance today...

Btw....those chains of 9s...where do you get that? Some new game hp limit?
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Yeah I read that mathmatically the odds of mankind being made from tiny organisms is so outrageously small that it was virtually impossible. It had something to do with it being .0 ............9 beinging equal to the number zero, just like .9 infinite is actually equal to the number 1. Google it if you don't believe me, the number .999999999999999999999 forever continuing is equal to the number 1.
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Space Cowboy wrote...
I'm sorry, but it only took roughly 4.5 billion years to get where we are, not 999whatever stupid number you put up. Nothing is impossible, only improbable. Also, in no way are the events that happened "orderly". It only seems that way because we observed them that way. The universe is pretty damn chaotic. If the chain of events hadn't happened the way they had, we simply wouldn't be here. Or maybe we'd have been a younger species. Or older. Maybe C H O N wouldn't have been our primary biological make up. The point is, evolution took a foothold on this planet; and through a series of mishaps, we came out of it all. Woot! Go us.


I'd like to add that irreducible complexity is a crock of shit, and Michael Behe can fuck himself.

The position our friend Carthagian here is taking is, unfortunately, all too common among Christians. It doesn't hold up at all, however, to that whole science thing, so I'm not too worried about it, outside of the fact that it means such a large number of otherwise intelligent people still deny evolution being a fact. There is more scientific evidence to support evolution than there is to support GRAVITY, yet 2/3 of adults in the US do not believe it, because of religion.

You cannot prove that God exists. And really, you shouldn't want to. God only works in a faith-based system. You remove the need for faith, you remove any reason for having a God.
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Oh well...at least I've seen funnier attempts of using numbers to prove the existence of God....lemme give one interesting article....that tops my "great proofs" list.

Spoiler:

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, ” My special congratulations to you”, because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief – he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers.

My Muslim brothers may question me, “Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?” The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, †˜La ilaaha’ – meaning †˜there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is †˜il lallah’ i.e. †˜BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.

My first question to the atheist will be: “What is the definition of God?” For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that †˜this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, †˜it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say †˜there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities – therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, ” Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, †˜the creator of that object.’ Some may say †˜the producer’ while others may say †˜the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the †˜CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is †˜God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, †˜ALLAH’.

Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, †˜S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs †˜S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. †˜signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes †˜U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.


Ah, this is coming from Dr Zakir Naik, btw.
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