U.S. Healthcare System is so fu#$ed up

Paying the outrageous hospital bills might be acceptable if the service was good, but I rarely hear anybody say that the doctors and/or nurses didn't treat them like shit.

Just a few days ago, my mother had a heart attack-like event. They performed surgery and wanted to keep her for a few days. She left the hospital after less than twenty-four hours. They ignored her a lot of the time, and when they did pay attention, it was only when she was trying to sleep. They only brought her one plate of food during the entire time, and when she told a nurse that no one had brought her anything for breakfast, the nurse's response was, "Oh, they didn't?" When she suddenly came home, my family was worried, but she said succinctly that she came home so that she could rest and eat something. She wasn't able to do either in the hospital.

When I make a peace sign with my right hand, my ring finger sticks up, like I'm telling someone I want two and a half of something. This is because during high school, I broke my hand twice, both times a boxer's fracture. The first time, the doctor set the bone, and I had a cast for five weeks. A couple of months after I lost the cast, I broke the bone again (I really suck at throwing punches). This time, the doctor didn't put on a cast. I can't remember exactly what he said, but he seemed uninterested and didn't seem to care about my broken bone at all. So now, when I raise just my index and middle finger, my hand looks weird and a slight pain runs through my ring finger.

That's just horror stories. My mother has heard a lot more from friends of hers. It seems like the majority of doctors and nurses don't give a damn about patients. They forget about them, don't worry about them, and act like they're stupid. I once had a rash-like thing on my face; I went to the ER, and the doctor that came in said that I was probably allergic to the detergent used on my sheets. I explained that I switch sides while sleeping, going from my left to my right and back several times throughout the night, and that allergies didn't explain the rash, which was only on one side of my face, almost like a line had been drawn down the middle of my face and the rash was only allowed on one side. Also, the detergent on my pillow cases was the same detergent used on my sheets, and the rash was nowhere else on my body. But the doctor didn't listen to a word I said. She just said to buy some detergent without certain chemicals or something and left. A few days later, when the rash started burning like hell, I went back to the ER. This time, a doctor took one look at my face and said that I had a certain kind of infection. He wrote me a prescription and sent me on my way, completely confident in his diagnosis. He knew what he was looking at, unlike the first doctor, who had no idea and couldn't bother to call in someone else.

Anyways, maybe it's just the doctors that treat poor people that don't have insurance that don't give a damn. But even if it is, something needs to be done. As long as the field only cares about money, people are going to keep being treated like shit.

No offense intended. I wasn't consciously generalizing the continent of Europe but, from my perspective the Western European Nations have a similar mentality of the role of Government in their lives which differs from the views within the United States.



Agreed, this hodgepodge system is broken. It's like trying to weld a French Horn and a Trumpet together and expecting anything other than absolute failure.



We ideologically clash here and frankly will never agree on. By sacrificing those people you are in essence saying that their live are not equal to to the lives of their fellow countrymen due to their disease. That is disgusting, repugnant and should be held as a national shame on behalf of England. No people can call themselves equal when they trample on the minority like that.



Can't argue with that without researching the motivations and employees of the Commonwealth fund for potential bias. I'll have to get back to you on that.

We already agree that the United States quasi-socialized medicine is utter trash. The American system was like a watch and politicians in order to buy loyal voters kept adding more springs, gears and other mechanisms to "make it better" and now we have a paperweight because the gears are jammed and unable to move.

How about this point: healthcare has gotten more expensive because we are better at it. People are living longer, and there are more possible expensive options for all manner of formerly fatal ailments.

It's often proposed that when you treat very old for something, the value you are getting out of it is less than when you treat someone younger. The treatment is often more likely to fail and/or the person is more like to die from something else in the near future anyway. The young person, if the treatment succeeds, is like to enjoy more life extension from the success. People are living longer, and thus getting more healthcare less efficiently, under this model.

This isn't to say that we shouldn't treat old people or express embitterment. I just think that this is significant factor contributing to healthcare costs rising that isn't really the fault of bad policy or poor individual responsibility.

It's an ethical dilemma. One could choose to use death panels and set limits on individual treatment to lower the burden on the masses, but each individual life is valuable. But then there are limited resources. It's tough.

When this happens, there is something very, very wrong with the system.

Both of my parents were able to live longer due to medical intervention between 2006 and 2009. My father had a double by-pass surgery. My mother was in the hospital for several reasons. One instance her kidney's were shutting down and she nearly died. The doctor's examination placed my mother at a few hours from death when she was admitted. Later she would require open heart surgery like my father but, to repair two valves in her heart and replace a third. Unfortunately, my mother passed in 2010. Under the models of Universal Healthcare my parents lives would have been sacrificed to "cut costs" (considering the grand total for my father's healthcare has amount to well over 1 million dollars worth of expenditures).I find the concept of sacrificing people lives for "cost" is disgusting, repugnant and dehumanizing of the people involved. They are people, not bloody numbers in an excel spreadsheet.

[font=verdana][color=green]Haha, we have seem to be doing that quite a few times lately. However, I don't feel that your comment is accurate. It's not that their lives aren't equal to the other lives whom receive medicine, but it's that, mathematically, their lives as a whole aren't equal to the lives who are saved. Let's say that we have a unit measurement for equality, for the fun of it, called Equallors/Equaounds. Every human gets 1 Equallor/Equaound. So, if, as the local health authority, I can get 17,000 Equaounds (bugger it, I'm English) for £20 million (I don't know how figures work...) or I could get 1500 Equaounds, which route am I likely to take? If it's called trampling on the minority, I'm sorry, but I'd have no other choice. That's when it's done purely by the numbers; if I were to go the other way and get 1500 Equaounds, I'd be seen as an illogical health authority who left 17,000 to die. What's more shame-worthy then?




[font=verdana][color=green]I'll await your response with regards to that. I did give that report a good read actually. It was interesting, but the first few pages pretty much tell you all you need to know; the later pages merely explain how they come to those conclusions. However, I'd doubt that you'd find bias, as the numbers are plain to see.

I like the analogy. It just appears to me that America need a new clock.

thanks for your replies, everyone. my nearly senseless rage opened up interesting notes. I see that some of us have experienced both benefits & dissatisfaction with U.S. health care. I talked to my G.P. (an excellent doctor) about the subject briefly, and he described it simply. "Without a doubt, the U.S. medical advancement/technology and medical care is top-notch in the world. But the patient's access to is fu#$ed up." Then he rambled on about how he himsel wasn't covered by insurance for several years at some time, and having the need to change his workplace so that he could get the hell away from insurance bullshit, malpractice insurance, etc.

man, he seemed to be quite affected by it, even though he is a cool, nonchalant guy.

I just feel so helpless in the deep rooted nature of health care system. As I watch documentaries, read more about it (I'm quite new at this, so i cannot offer much insight like the fakku elites here). I don't think I even want to apply to med school in the U.S. anymore. lol

I'm sorry for your loss FPOD and glad that your parents life could be extended.

However your last comment is just not true. These are expensive procedures, but they *are* provided for in most universal care systems.

Whether you and your family lived in Hungary, Korea or a number of other countries with Universal Health Care they'd have still received treatment to save their lives. If it took a bypass, valve replacement then that's what it would have taken.

They might have had to wait for the non-immediate operations. This would have been the case both in Canada and in Hungary. In Korea they'd have likely received the same care earlier. In Canada or Hungary they wouldn't have had to pay anything. In Korea they would have had to pay a small portion of the medical costs.

Yes, some things *are* limited in universal health care as they are not universally affordable. There's just not enough money for that. Things like experimental cancer treatment. In Korea you could still receive these treatments but you'd have to pay for them.

...however even in countries with universal health-care you can *still* buy a health insurance. These cover only elective, experimental or high-cost procedures if your system includes paying a small portion of costs (e.g. the Korean).

Is there a death panel? Yes.
Is the American system any different? No.

Instead some doctors deciding - and deciding for everyone - whether the country as a whole can afford some procedures or not, you have a panel of lawyers who try to deny *whatever* procedures they can.

Your cancer may be a pre-existing condition. You're SOL. The insurance company won't pay. Your treatment may only take place at specific hospitals... with a backlog. If you don't jog over there - even if you're in grievous pain - the insurance company might not pay.

The American system is plagued by the very same problems the GOP ascribes to "universal health care", and whether you're saved or not ends up a question of whether you can pay or not... or whether you've paid enough for an insurance earlier.

You still have death panels, it's just that you never get a hearing and those sitting on the panel will do everything in their power to deny you treatment... for that's the only way to maximize profit.

Do you have any idea how many procedures are considered "elective" or "experimental" in insurance lingo? Like getting *two* cochlear implants, instead one.

I don't argue that the universal systems are better in all ways... I just have to point out that what you argue is not true, or at least not any truer than what you already have in the USA.

Sounds like someone has watched Michael Moore's Sicko! I watched it last night and it was quite a surprise. Especially about France's health care & governmental aid to everyone.

:0

Well, life (or health care) is not just fun & marshmallows in a univseral system either... and I don't think a multi-insurance system can't work either. In fact health care systems all seem to suffer from similar problems.

It's just that without stringent regulations - thank to Reagenism - the American system has been corrupted to the core. That's what you get when you set loose corporations where maximizing profit does not benefit the public.

A universal system by comparison is inherently less likely to produce these kind of inequality. People still die, and might die from things they could be saved from if more money was available.... but at least even the down trodden and poor get a *chance*.

...in the American system, over 40% of the population is just SOL. You could make sanctimonious parables that they don't contribute to the taxes so they shouldn't receive any help... but this is bullshit. They're the ones doing all the shit tier jobs in the country. They contribute to the GDP, they contribute to the profit of the wealthy. Even the jobless do, as they consume the products built by companies.

However America the GOP seems to enamored with the idea of individualism, that they find *any* idea that has to do with *collective* responsibility abhorrent. In fact nowadays, if one goes by the GOPs slogens, your foremost right is the freedom to die:

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/16/opinion/krugman-free-to-die.html?_r=3

My point isn't that the healthcare system should let your parents die. My point is that if we want to give everyone the best possible treatment, we have no choice but to accept that healthcare costs will be higher. Otherwise, the only way to cut costs would be to shave off what someone if getting somewhere. There's the socialist option of redistributing the healthcare, the free market option of letting those too poor to afford health insurance, those unfortunate enough to have poor enough constitutions to make health insurance unaffordable, and those who decide not to buy insurance for whatever other reason die, or something in between. Or I guess the government could artificially drive down the price of healthcare by forcing down wages of medical professionals and medical resources, but this would also lower the quality of available healthcare.

I don't think there is some magic voodoo healthcare plan that can fundamentally alter this calculus. It's somewhat incoherent to complain about high healthcare costs but also insist that everyone deserves the best possible treatment no matter what because all lives are valuable.

So let me ask you: if someone ends up in the ER with no insurance, do you think we should deny that person treatment and let them die so that the cost of their choice not to buy insurance is not passed on to everyone else?

I have a personal story to tell, to hopefully stimulate conversation, as well as to get it off my chest and maybe feel a little better about the whole situation.

About three weeks ago, my mother had a heart attack. She had been having chest pains off and on all that day, and she asked my dad to take her to the emergency room because the pain started to go into her arm. At the hospital, they told her that she'd be having a massive heart attack all day long, or something along those lines.

I will clarify our situation: we are poor, living paycheck-to-paycheck. My father works odd hours; one week, he'll work for three days, and the next week, he'll work for four days, each day being a twelve-hour shift. This is important because missing one day of work means missing either a third or a quarter of his paycheck that week. We don't have health insurance, of course.

At the ER, my mother had a stint put in and was put into a room. She was there for less than twenty-four hours; fed up with the doctors that never visited her (also, there was supposedly a group of doctors looking over her, and she never saw the same doctor twice) and the shitty care she was receiving (they brought her food only twice the entire time she was there, dinner the night she was brought in and lunch the next day; when she told the nurse that brought her lunch that she had never been given breakfast, the nurse just said, "Oh, they didn't bring it?"), she ripped out her IV and walked out of the hospital. The doctors had prescribed her several medications, two of which completely disregarded the fact that she has abnormal blood pressure. One of the medications was Plavix, which costs $200 a month, something we cannot afford. Of course, we didn't get the prescriptions filled.

Due to my mother going to the hospital, my father missed two days of work that week - twenty-four hours worth of work.

About a week later, my mother had to be rushed to the hospital again. That time, they had to call an ambulance to pick her up, because she was in so much pain. Once again, it was a heart attack. However, instead of taking her to the closest hospital, they took her to a bigger, better hospital where she received much better care. She actually stayed until they released her that time. She again received several prescriptions, including Plavix which she got some samples of and has been taking. She is doing relatively well now, though she is very weak the majority of the time. The better hospital informed her that there are two types of stints, one which requires taking Plavix for only three months and the other which requires taking Plavix for the rest of one's life. The shitty hospital put in the latter; furthermore, she had the second heart attack because they did a shitty job putting it in. The good hospital was dumbfounded at why the shitty hospital had done the things it did.

Due to the second heart attack, my father had to miss three days of work - thirty-six hours worth of work.

We went to the ER because we didn't have insurance; we have very high hospital bills we will never be able to pay. My mother is alive right now because someone else foot the bill. If the government decided that every citizen has to pay for every medical treatment they receive, and if they cannot pay, they will not receive the treatment, my mother would be dead right now.

At the same time, if all the hospitals were on par with the first, shitty hospital she went to, she'd probably be dead, despite receiving care. But perhaps that is moot, since people with insurance go to that shitty hospital. All I know is that we had to rely on hospitals, doctors, and nurses to save her life, and if money had been their only concern, they would have left her to die in the street, because we have none to spare.

Hey K-1, thank you for your post. I'm truly sorry about your mother; I'm also very, f-ing pissed off that she had to go through hardship and endanger her life due to the incompentency of the first hospital treatment, and the lack of proper health care. The uninsured really are screwed when they are in health crisis; I'm in the same situation.

So far, I'm deciding whether to go back to S. Korea to receive free medical care at the cost of being unable to finish my American university degree, or stay and wait months for proper treatment at very high cost. I'm just so sick of hurting or being disabled. Even more, being HELPLESS due to the inability to get treatment WITHOUT worrying about high cost or being in debt.

I hope that your mother is doing better. It also pains me that your father is working his bones off, doing 12-hour shifts and your family barely meeting ends. I just cannot help but to realize that there is just so much suffering everywhere...

i'm having difficulty breathing, and have been for last 110 days.

Can you leave the country et all - and retain your VISA - or do you have specific limitations? Have you considered going to Canada and claiming to be someone's dependent and take advantage of their free health care?

Hey Flaser. Unfortunately, no for me. Right now, I'm being penetrated by both the broken Immigration AND health care system in the U.S.

I'm currently undocumented, with visa overstay. I've been adopted by a U.S. citizen for several years, but my petition for green card was denied in 2009. I applied for green card for the 2nd time in June 2011, about 3 months ago.

If I leave the U.S.A., I'll most likely be banned from re-entry for 10 years, and that means that I will not be able to get my U.S. bachelor's degree. i'm just about to lose my mind.

There is too much sacrifice if i leave the country. But I'm not sure if getting treatment in the U.S. will even make me better, because i'll have to wait at least a month for series of testing to begin.

Could you stop with the unsubstantiated claims or I'm gonna have to call bullshit. Here are the facts:
-NOT having a universal health care system, puts the USA into the category labeled, "anomaly, as it's almost a given in the rest of the developed world.
-The last I recalled, the Japanese, Korean, Canadian, British health-care systems were doing fine. So called "news" to the contrary are BULLSHIT. No, Fox News doesn't count as they're notorious for spinning things out of context and outright presenting unsubstantiated data as hard fact.

PS.: Extreme libertarians like you scare the shit out of me. At least FPOD has a point and acknowledges the importance of compassion... you on the hand would grant me the "right" to die like a starved dog regardless the circumstances.

well, i hope that you are insured. Also, I hope that you will never have any serious injury or illness. You would be surprised at the high cost of hospital services.

First of all, why do you think people PREFER the US in terms of healthcare? Are you going to argue with me and deny that? Of course not, what I say is true.

I don't understand people when they say something that is the opposite of what they stand for. It's better if you understood the difference between mandatory and obliged healthcare. The topic at hand, and please pay attention to that, complains about obliged healthcare and the prices of it.

By even stepping a single foot in protest of what I have said, you oppose choice of healthcare and support mandatory universal healthcare. You forget that some countries, even a couple you've listed, allow choice of healthcare within their universal healthcare system. You also didn't mention whether or not they were adequate and fully effiecient. Why? All you can say is "they're fine" without justification. Again, you mistake optional universal healthcare and mandatory healthcare and only speak of universal healthcare itself; ignorance.

And do understand what a libertarian is, you're just confusing yourself. It's repulsive when people become desperate and use certain language to prove an unnecessary point.

A lot is revealed through language, it's a tip from me to you. There really isn't need for a foul or derogatory tone, it just shows more desperation.

Good day.

Preference is irrelevant. I prefer mint chocolate chip over vanilla. Does that demean vanilla? No, it's a subjective opinion. Argue with solid facts like efficiency, waiting times, survivability rates, etc.

For example: There was a study a couple years ago I posted once (unfortunately I no longer have the study or a link) that compared the survivability rates of the NHS vs the American system. The findings stated the U.S system had increased survivability of 3% for some cancers and up to 3X the survivability for other cancers

Edit: You could also mention the key performance differences between the two systems. The American system spends more money per patient because of various factors raising the cost HMO's , insurance company bureaucrats, (arguably) government intervention/regulation. Not to mention that the Universal system concentrates on the ounce of prevention to our pound of cure.

Factors are driving up the cost, if we can isolate and remedy those factors the American system would be on par with any universal system if not better.



I'm not following this. Please restate it in coherent English.



Gotta agree here. Consent is a major factor in classic liberal and all libertarian schools of thought. If someone does not consent to an action then you are illegally and immorally applying force to that person. Doesn't matter if I break into your house (or mug you) and use that money to buy you healthcare. Point of the matter is, I still stole money from you.



I could ask you the same and I could include if you know the difference between a libertarian and a Libertarian.

Pardon me for sounding like a hipster but, I was a libertarian on Fakku before it was cool.

*Yawn*
I'll just put it as it stands.
Reality is real and exists. Our dreams, imaginations, and opinions are not the basis of reality but our own and only from them can we produce reality. Therefore, they're the recipes of reality and NOT reality until the formula is conjured. You follow?

But what's the reality? You already know the answer.
What are you going to do? Continue to spew your dreams, imaginations and opinions at an idiot like me through a computer?
By all means go for it and get real while you're at it.

There you have it.