U.S. Healthcare System is so fu#$ed up

Seems to me you posted the reply in the wrong thread. Biglundi's logic threads are
hereand here.

Please come back when you can reply to the arguments about the healthcare system and not undermine other libertarians such as myself.

As I read this I noticed nobody metioned illegals getting hospital care for free. It has caused several Hospitals to go bankrupt and makes hospital conditons hell. For example Chirt hospital in Chicago's Southern suburbs. I was born there and was a great hospital with a superb childern's wing. Now due to illegals gangbanging the conditions are worse.

Move to Canada, sure you wait for an hour or two but its all FREE. The trade off for this is that Canada has much higher taxes.

It is not free. You are paying for the healthcare as you go.

It's free as in "free roads", "free education", etc. Yes. They're paying for them... through taxes. You have payroll taxes even in the USA, though since health-care is not included they're a lot lower.

Granted as a libertarian you view all non-negotiable payment as inherently evil.

However health-care is a basic human need, so as a social democrat, I find mandatory taxation acceptable. It's not like those who are taxed don't even have any say in the matter. Democracy is all about using your vote, to get taxation you agree with.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. That's the basis of solidarity and its a necessary binding force in functioning societies.

Indeed. Theft is theft regardless of motivations. If the U.S Government switched to a consumption tax then I would be perfectly fine with taxes. It'd save me every April from worrying about how I'm going to come up with another 4 grand for Uncle Sam to squander.



The problem with Democracy, at least in large scale, is your vote doesn't actually matter unless it's the majority vote. As the saying goes



I'd prefer if the decisions and preferences of others weren't forced upon me. I would likewise reciprocate by not forcing anything onto others.

Living in the US doesn't mean you'll get good health care. There are a lot of shitty hospitals here.

As I said, my mother went to the closest hospital and got horrendous care. The doctors and nurses, the entire organization of the hospital in fact, were inadequate and incredibly poor. And the hospital wasn't a free clinic or meant only for poor people; it's a large hospital in a large city. I am very glad we didn't pay for the service there, because if we had paid, we would have been royally screwed over. It'd be like paying someone a couple hundred dollars to fix your car and only being able to drive it out of the shop before it broke down again.

High prices do not always mean quality service. That is true of all business, but it is especially true when it comes to health care in America. You're always going to get a huge bill at a hospital, whether you get good treatment or not.

you spoke my mind. i recently got my student health insurance back. it's a great insurance, but it doesn't mean that i'll get necessary tests to take right away.
I made an appointment for an endoscopy, and the nearest appointment avaliable was on Nov. 7, a nearly fucking month away!

i mean, i've been suffering for 4 months now, and I just want to find out what is exactly wrong with me. Just because our health care is way more costly than other countries, or not socialized does not mean that the hospital service/care is great.

My university hospital is ranked 13th in the U.S. overall. I can honestly tell you that every service i received was average/even not satisfactory. I shudder at how bad other hospitals can be if one of the supposedly top university hospital is so mediocre, with long wait list.

btw, K-1, I hope that your mother is doing well

I believe that is the staff to blame and not the insurence people faults that they didn't care about you or the other people in the hospital.

Excuse me, but IT IS THEIR FAULT! The main supposed, "benefit" of an free-market insurance based system is that an insurer should be a better host than the state, since it wants to get the most for its money... hence why mere trifles like "customer satisfaction", should be at least better then in purely state run systems.

some people got cheaper healthcare than others...and others pay outrageous prices for it...
I don't know much about this topic but I did in fact see a actress (That girl from million-dollar baby) she said that the insurance costed her 5000 dollars a year and by lot of people that is pretty high....
I don't know how the system works but seeing a lot of people complain about it and that this has been one of Americas biggest issue.

So the insurence people are to blame when I go to the ER after a car crash and while I'm waiting for a doctor for 5 hours no one on staff atempted to clean up the dried blood on the floor. And I suppose it's also their fault that when my grandpa was in the hospital my mom had to give him a spongebath because the nurse wouldn't do it because he was white.

Well, i guess we just have to be happy on what we have. Some countries don't even have healthcare. US Healthcare may not be the best but it's not the worst either.

Yes, it IS THEIR FAULT! They're the one with the "cold hard cash", so to speak. They're the "boss", who decides what goes and what doesn't. They're the ones who should enforce a good environment.

Insurence agents don't run hospitals, doctors and nurses do and it is their apathy that causes crappy conditions in hospitals.

You're confusing agency with responsibility. It's the doctors and nurses who run the day to day business of a hospital, however it's still the insurance companies' responsibility to insure they do in an adequate matter... because they've got the our dough and therefore the responsibility to insure we get our money's worth. In fact that was the reason the whole insurance scam came to be, since they claimed they'd do a better job than the state.

To throw a few buzzwords out there: ISO 9001, auditing, auditing agent... look these up, and see how it's normally done in responsible industries.

All insurence companies do is pay bills. Lets say I go to the hospital and my bill comes out to $20,000, if I didn't have insurence then I'd have to pay the whole thing. If I have insurence I pay the insurence company a fee every 6 months or so, for when I need to go to the hospital they pay the most of the bill and I only end up paying $500. (This was an example I don't know what the actual numbers would be.) Their job is not to oversee hospitals. Are insurence companies greedy, yes. Do I like them, no, but I'd rather pay them then let the government dicate what I could do medically and give them more control over me then they already have.

Your just trying to sidetrack the conversation.
Insurance companies still ARE responsible for the hospitals.

Who else is responsible? Who could make the conditions better? ...and if insurance companies are not responsible, then why the fuck should I pay them a penny?

If I pay for a service, I better damn get it.

People are not paying the fucking insurance so they won't have to pay more later... they're paying 'cause they want medical coverage!

If you peddle a service, then you fail to deliver, then yes, it's your fault, you're the one who took on the responsibility by taking the money for it.

I'm gonna explain it again, You get hurt, you go to hospital, if you don't have insurence you pay for whole bill. If you have insurence, they pay for most of the bill. That is ALL! The hospital staff are required to clean the hospital and give people care. It's the lazy staff who are to blame for staff infections and the like. You pay insurence so your not stuck with a $30,000 bill for having kidney stones removed and so prescriptions cost only $5 insted of $70

Flaser, I think I get what you're saying, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The insurance company is like the manager of a store, and the hospitals are the employees. If a customer comes into the store and gets treated rudely by an employee, the manager should be blamed as well as the employee, because he should have trained the employee better or otherwise ensured that the employee wouldn't treat customers badly. The manager is the one that pays the employee, after all, and it is the manager's responsibility to curb bad behavior and, if need be, replace employees to ensure customer satisfaction.

If an insurance company sends me to a crappy hospital, I should be able to complain to the insurance company because they're the ones that sent me there. Ideally, if sent to a crappy hospital, I would be able to drop the insurance company that sent me there, thus showing that I thought they were doing a bad job, and instead get an insurance company that would send me to a good hospital.

The employee gets chewed out, but so does the manager. After all, no matter what I do, I cannot fire the employee. Only the manager can do that.