Who do you want to win the 2012 U.S. Presidential election?
Who do you want to win for 2012?
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Fiery_penguin_of_doom wrote...
@LionThis is the problem with "universal" systems, eventually the Government MUST take control due to costs associated with regulations. Our laws require hospitals to provide emergency healthcare for people who can't pay for it. That cost is then passed onto every other visitor to the hospital which drives up costs. Now, imagine if the Government mandated the same treatment for any hospital visit? Costs would sky rocket then cost management measures would be taken which leads us to "death panels" or whatever you want to call them.
If you would, provide the link of where Dr. Paul states that the government can negotiate prices. I feel that you may have misinterpreted his statement.
My personal interpretation is, if you operate over state lines you are subject to regulation by the Feds and only the Feds. This is to create a uniform standard (I hate it when I drive into another state and my "papers" are not recognized which forces me to spent $50 just to continue.
Example: Requirements for a license to drive a commercial vehicle.
Example2: If Farmer Juan exports his produce to the East coast then the Feds can regulate the standards for his produce (F.D.A)
If you don't cross state lines you are subject to state regulations only.
If your argument is that any regulation automatically leads to universal healthcare, I don't buy it. Plenty of people are against universal healthcare, and there are good points ti be made there. And of course the specifics of the system are very important.
What I don't see is how an unregulated free market is a good solution. In my first post, I explained why I thought the incentives in an unregulated free market would be problematic for those who need healthcare. I think there needs to be some regulation by the government to create a system that treats people reasonably and effectively.
I'm curious to know how you think we should or shouldn't regulate healthcare. Should people who show up in the ER with no insurance be allowed to die? Would it be acceptable and fair for health insurance providers to place great burden on or deny insurance to those with pre-existing conditions?
As for the negotiation issue, Ron Paul voted for the Medicare Prescription Drug Price Negotiation Act of 2007 which allowed the federal government to negotiate drug prices with drug providers. Maybe he feels differently now(I've not seen any information suggesting this), but at the time he supported this measure, which looks to me like government influencing the market. It seemed to me like something I would have expected him to oppose.[quote]
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WhiteLion wrote...
If your argument is that any regulation automatically leads to universal healthcare, I don't buy it. Plenty of people are against universal healthcare, and there are good points ti be made there. And of course the specifics of the system are very important.Not all but, our current gaggle of goons in power have a penchant for overdoing. I could tolerate "Obamacare" in the way one tolerates a sweat rash. I opposed the mandate which I believe violates my rights by forcing me to spend property ( capital and by extension by lifespan) to pay for this service that I do not want. They can build systems all they want so long as the people involved consent. If one person does not consent and can not opt out then it is a violation of a citizen's property rights.
What I don't see is how an unregulated free market is a good solution. In my first post, I explained why I thought the incentives in an unregulated free market would be problematic for those who need healthcare. I think there needs to be some regulation by the government to create a system that treats people reasonably and effectively.
No Libertarians or libertarians preach total anarchy, we're not anarcho-capitalist. Even libertarian schools agree with regulation but, the difference between your regulation and my regulation is very nuanced.
Question:
Would libertarians ever support environmental regulations? -Submitted by Trevor in Long Beach
Answer:
No. However, libertarianism implies very strict property rights protection and bans on dumping, elimination of public realms (privatization of all communal properties), as well as bans on the production of any negative externalities (like air pollution), so once these are made part of the legal system and public policy, most environmental matters should be successfully managed.
Would libertarians ever support environmental regulations? -Submitted by Trevor in Long Beach
Answer:
No. However, libertarianism implies very strict property rights protection and bans on dumping, elimination of public realms (privatization of all communal properties), as well as bans on the production of any negative externalities (like air pollution), so once these are made part of the legal system and public policy, most environmental matters should be successfully managed.
I'm curious to know how you think we should or shouldn't regulate healthcare. Should people who show up in the ER with no insurance be allowed to die? Would it be acceptable and fair for health insurance providers to place great burden on or deny insurance to those with pre-existing conditions?
From my perspective, you should buy insurance to cover major illnesses or accidents and that's all it should cover. If you go to the doctor for a pulled muscle then it should come out of your pocket (this is where local organizations and charities for lower income) would come into play. We already have organizations that give reading glasses to low income families. Why would people think that charities would spring up to help?
If you are uninsured then your options are using charities to help pay for your treatment (cancer survivors would obviously donate money to help other cancer patients) or by negotiating payment plans for your care. I'll have to finish this particular section at a later date but, overall people such as myself believe the prices would drop if we removed unnecessary regulation from the industry and focused the industry more on service + cost efficiency as opposed to universal systems. As the policies get's cheaper, more people will buy insurance thus reducing the burden and further driving the individual costs down. Somebody threw a wrench into the system and rather than remove the offending wrench we're talking about buying a whole new machine. That my friend doesn't make sense.
Lesson on why libertarians disdain Government regulation.
Spoiler:
As for the negotiation issue, Ron Paul voted for the Medicare Prescription Drug Price Negotiation Act of 2007 which allowed the federal government to negotiate drug prices with drug providers. Maybe he feels differently now(I've not seen any information suggesting this), but at the time he supported this measure, which looks to me like government influencing the market. It seemed to me like something I would have expected him to oppose.
Link.
From what I gather, the government is buying a private good. The act gives the government the authority to negotiate the price they will sell the medication at. All this fuss over something that is essentially a non-issue. It's nothing more than negotiating with Office Depot over the price they'll pay for printer ink.
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Fiery_penguin_of_doom wrote...
I'm curious to know how you think we should or shouldn't regulate healthcare. Should people who show up in the ER with no insurance be allowed to die? Would it be acceptable and fair for health insurance providers to place great burden on or deny insurance to those with pre-existing conditions?
From my perspective, you should buy insurance to cover major illnesses or accidents and that's all it should cover. If you go to the doctor for a pulled muscle then it should come out of your pocket (this is where local organizations and charities for lower income) would come into play. We already have organizations that give reading glasses to low income families. Why would people think that charities would spring up to help?
If you are uninsured then your options are using charities to help pay for your treatment (cancer survivors would obviously donate money to help other cancer patients) or by negotiating payment plans for your care. I'll have to finish this particular section at a later date but, overall people such as myself believe the prices would drop if we removed unnecessary regulation from the industry and focused the industry more on service + cost efficiency as opposed to universal systems. As the policies get's cheaper, more people will buy insurance thus reducing the burden and further driving the individual costs down. Somebody threw a wrench into the system and rather than remove the offending wrench we're talking about buying a whole new machine. That my friend doesn't make sense.
Your answer about how we should regulate healthcare is still incomplete. You're ducking some of the questions with fantastic answers(Ron Paul ducked it with the charity answer at the Tea Party Express debate as well). Is it reasonable for insurance companies to place huge burden on those with pre-existing conditions, or should the government ban this?
It's easy to say that if someone shows up in the ER we should just bill them for the care, but the reality is that if an individual needs a $1 million life saving operation, that person may very well not be able to pay off that debt even over the course of their entire lifetime. And then the cost is still being redistributed to everyone else. In fact, you would tend to think that the people who would choose not to buy health insurance would mainly be the poor who are struggling to pay for everything else they need. They are also the least likely to be able to pay for expensive care. I mean, under our current system, if you show up in the ER uninsured, they do TRY to bill you for your care. But you can't take something from someone who already has nothing. It simply doesn't work.
And I tend to think that even if charitable giving did increase, a charity paying for people who chose not to buy health insurance would be a hard sell. People would say "why should I help someone who knew the system and didn't buy health insurance?"
I also don't find it believable that charities would be able to successfully address this problem in all or even most cases. Part of it is simply the sheer quantity of money required, but charities are also plagued by their own inefficiencies. Because they are decentralized, it can be difficult for the amalgam of charities to allocate their resources in a way that makes sense. After all, charities are usually required to use their money in the way that donors request/in support of their mission statement. We saw this problem with tsunami relief. People would donate money for something like "building houses in devastated country X" and then the charities HAD to use that money to build houses in devastated country X. In Sri Lanka in 2004 charities ended up building some ridiculously nice houses because they had a bunch of money that HAD to be used on housing when it would have been more helpful to use that money on something else, like medicine. And even if we could convince donors to not earmark their money, people still have to choose between donating to the Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity, SOME, and whatever else. People tend to donate based on what issues they care about and find important. There's no way for us to look at the diverse needs that people have and try to enact an allocation of charitable giving that can help as many people as possible with their most pressing needs.
So what happens to the people that we can't bill and charities can't help? Do we let them die or force everyone else to pay for them?
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Cruz
Dope Stone Lion
Fiery_penguin_of_doom wrote...
The benefit-cost ratio would have denied my parents care and sentenced them to death which at the time would have personally left me homeless.
Cursed Death Panels.
Staying on topic, I'm still on the fence on Dr.Paul. I can at least agree with some of his ideas, but then again I don't feel like I should have to compromise because he has a running chance.
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VotableDrWhat wrote...
I'm about as politically minded as the next person, ie; not much, but it really makes me feel uneasy that the first time I get to vote it's going to be for people like this.I'm really at an impasse, and I need to do a lot more thinking before I can even begin to think about who gets my vote.
this.
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She wrote...
VotableDrWhat wrote...
I'm about as politically minded as the next person, ie; not much, but it really makes me feel uneasy that the first time I get to vote it's going to be for people like this.I'm really at an impasse, and I need to do a lot more thinking before I can even begin to think about who gets my vote.
this.
Odd. The most I used to think about politics was that all politicians are crooks and it would be a waste of my time to even think about voting since it wouldn't really matter. Then I heard about Ron Paul and now I plan of voting for the first time in my life.
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I don't even like the fact we even have a president.
I feel like people think that the person they elect as president is essentially the King of America, and his/her ideas are decreed as absolute law when they take office. In truth, they are one person, within one branch of the government, whom the constitution specifically forbids from writing, proposing, or even editing laws and legislation.
They can't even do fun things like declare war.
The president is intended to be a foreign dignitary as in "Head of State", head of the military as Commander in Chief, and a part of the legislative process in the limited capacity of having veto power - as to prevent the abuse of the majority.
Anyone who would run with the promise of limiting their power to these responsibilities is the person I'd vote for.
It seems to me though, that people don’t bother to talk about or even vote for senators and house representatives, who more accurately represent the people and also actually have the power to write laws and have authority to make change.
Instead, people want to argue about which person should be our next King/Queen and assume this person will aim their scepter out over this land, and it will shoot out a powerful rainbow that miraculously solves all our problems with wonderful (and vague) promiseses of compromise, hope, and lower taxe for the poor.
I feel like people think that the person they elect as president is essentially the King of America, and his/her ideas are decreed as absolute law when they take office. In truth, they are one person, within one branch of the government, whom the constitution specifically forbids from writing, proposing, or even editing laws and legislation.
They can't even do fun things like declare war.
The president is intended to be a foreign dignitary as in "Head of State", head of the military as Commander in Chief, and a part of the legislative process in the limited capacity of having veto power - as to prevent the abuse of the majority.
Anyone who would run with the promise of limiting their power to these responsibilities is the person I'd vote for.
It seems to me though, that people don’t bother to talk about or even vote for senators and house representatives, who more accurately represent the people and also actually have the power to write laws and have authority to make change.
Instead, people want to argue about which person should be our next King/Queen and assume this person will aim their scepter out over this land, and it will shoot out a powerful rainbow that miraculously solves all our problems with wonderful (and vague) promiseses of compromise, hope, and lower taxe for the poor.
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neko-chan wrote...
I don't even like the fact we even have a president. I feel like people think that the person they elect as president is essentially the King of America, and his/her ideas are decreed as absolute law when they take office. In truth, they are one person, within one branch of the government, whom the constitution specifically forbids from writing, proposing, or even editing laws and legislation.
They can't even do fun things like declare war.
The president is intended to be a foreign dignitary as in "Head of State", head of the military as Commander in Chief, and a part of the legislative process in the limited capacity of having veto power - as to prevent the abuse of the majority.
Anyone who would run with the promise of limiting their power to these responsibilities is the person I'd vote for.
It seems to me though, that people don’t bother to talk about or even vote for senators and house representatives, who more accurately represent the people and also actually have the power to write laws and have authority to make change.
Instead, people want to argue about which person should be our next King/Queen and assume this person will aim their scepter out over this land, and it will shoot out a powerful rainbow that miraculously solves all our problems with wonderful (and vague) promiseses of compromise, hope, and lower taxe for the poor.
The president does have the executive order though, and the only candidate I know of that swore that he would not use the executive order to legislate is Ron Paul.
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Executive orders are not law, and are subject to judicial review to decide whether they are unconstitutional.
It is not a decree of some sort that the president can make to change policy or the laws of the land.
It is not a decree of some sort that the president can make to change policy or the laws of the land.
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WhiteLion wrote...
It's easy to say that if someone shows up in the ER we should just bill them for the care, but the reality is that if an individual needs a $1 million life saving operation, that person may very well not be able to pay off that debt even over the course of their entire lifetime. And then the cost is still being redistributed to everyone else. In fact, you would tend to think that the people who would choose not to buy health insurance would mainly be the poor who are struggling to pay for everything else they need. They are also the least likely to be able to pay for expensive care. I mean, under our current system, if you show up in the ER uninsured, they do TRY to bill you for your care. But you can't take something from someone who already has nothing. It simply doesn't work.If everything in the system fails then you are shit out of luck I'm afraid. Your inability to pay for something does not grant you the right to steal from someone else. If I couldn't afford my electric bill, does that grant me the right to walk into your home and take money from your wallet or write myself a check from your checkbook?
And I tend to think that even if charitable giving did increase, a charity paying for people who chose not to buy health insurance would be a hard sell. People would say "why should I help someone who knew the system and didn't buy health insurance?"
If you choose not to by a product, suffer the consequences. If you could not afford the product, charities, private and community organizations would exist to aid you to the best of their abilities.
So what happens to the people that we can't bill and charities can't help? Do we let them die or force everyone else to pay for them?
Unfortunately, yes. Someone's inability to purchase a product should not grant them the right to steal from someone else. I would rather live in a world where my inability to use my property for something is the reason for my death than some unaccountable government cubicle rat with a budget to uphold.
Issues like this would be less common if reforms were taken to the medical industry to reduce costs associated with government and corporate middlemen. While returning to a service that focus's on minimizing costs and empowering the patient for the PATIENT to decide what treatments he or she will undertake not HMO bureaucrats with an itchy lawsuit finger.
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I'd personally like to see Obama again. People's main complaints about him not "bringing change" don't understand how laws and changes like that are made. Yes, he continued two wars, but he at least made one big accomplishment with Osama bin Laden's death. I haven't seen much from the other candidates because I don't watch major news networks, but I don't like what little I have seen. Then again, maybe someone will surprise me, it's too early for me to tell.
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In the end, remember, we are the one who can change the Political Status from the World. Choose wisely for the "one".
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As a libertarian, I'm definitely voting for Ron Paul in the primaries and in the nationals if he makes it that far. If not, I'll support giving Obama a second term.
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Cruz
Dope Stone Lion
I guess one problem with the libertarian ideology is that their "right to do anything" mentality extends into the right for corporations to give money freely to any candidate they see fit, as a sort of freedom of speech issue. what ends up happening, however, is that those with enough money to buy the state, decide what rights everyone else is allowed, thus circumventing the whole idea of libertarianism.
But then again no system is perfect.
But then again no system is perfect.
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Ron Paul would be my ideal choice but his views on ending Social Security and Medicare are asinine.
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Reasonably Bored wrote...
Ron Paul would be my ideal choice but his views on ending Social Security and Medicare are asinine.Our current method of spending every penny of extras that come from Social Security isn't working either. Assuming you're still in your 30's or younger by the time you start receiving social security benefits the program will already be adding to each year's deficit. I'm not saying it's a good idea to just end it but we're basically fucking ourselves over if we continue what we're doing.
I don't agree with his views on Medicare as well, but I doubt he'll be able to completely remove it.
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Wow my name is really lon wrote...
Reasonably Bored wrote...
Ron Paul would be my ideal choice but his views on ending Social Security and Medicare are asinine.Our current method of spending every penny of extras that come from Social Security isn't working either. Assuming you're still in your 30's or younger by the time you start receiving social security benefits the program will already be adding to each year's deficit. I'm not saying it's a good idea to just end it but we're basically fucking ourselves over if we continue what we're doing.
I don't agree with his views on Medicare as well, but I doubt he'll be able to completely remove it.
I have to disagree with that; Social Security was introduced for various reasons primiarily towards the old and it accomplished its goal quite effectively. Well, we'll see what happens!
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Elections are gonna burst into flames once it gets going....
people from both sides are going ALL OUT and are using every resources necessary to to win this..... but the ones who really make the change are WE THE PEOPLE!
Who are YOU gonna vote?
And as soon as you answer the poll, then write your opinion as to WHY they would make a good CANDIDATE to become a president or actually BECOME the PRESIDENT.
people from both sides are going ALL OUT and are using every resources necessary to to win this..... but the ones who really make the change are WE THE PEOPLE!
Who are YOU gonna vote?
And as soon as you answer the poll, then write your opinion as to WHY they would make a good CANDIDATE to become a president or actually BECOME the PRESIDENT.
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Cruz
Dope Stone Lion
There's a thread really similar to this one.
https://www.fakku.net/viewtopic.php?t=72512
Staying on topic..
I'm waiting to see who's gets to be the republican nominee.
https://www.fakku.net/viewtopic.php?t=72512
Staying on topic..
I'm waiting to see who's gets to be the republican nominee.