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Fate Stay Night

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illumi
16 years ago
Unlimited Blade Works = Best Route.

I actually liked the TrueEnd more than the GoodEnd. For me, Tohsaka > Saber.
Also, Heroic Spirit Emiya was so bad ass. I love how much of a cynical bad ass he becomes.

Garcher.

illumi wrote...
Unlimited Blade Works


I am the bone of my sword.
Steel is my body, and fire is my blood.
I have created over a thousand blades.
Unknown to death.
Nor known to life.
Have withstood pain to create many weapons.
Yet, those hands will never hold anything.
So as I pray, 'Unlimited Blade Works'.
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Omahunek
16 years ago
illumi wrote...
Unlimited Blade Works = Best Route.

I actually liked the TrueEnd more than the GoodEnd. For me, Tohsaka > Saber.
Also, Heroic Spirit Emiya was so bad ass. I love how much of a cynical bad ass he becomes.

Garcher.

illumi wrote...
Unlimited Blade Works


I am the bone of my sword.
Steel is my body, and fire is my blood.
I have created over a thousand blades.
Unknown to death.
Nor known to life.
Have withstood pain to create many weapons.
Yet, those hands will never hold anything.
So as I pray, 'Unlimited Blade Works'.


I really liked the route, not because of Tohsaka (though I do like her), but because of Archer/Shirou. Like, you can't get more badass than a human taking down fucking Gilgamesh. I also liked it because of the Good End (>_> Yay maybe three-ways? O_o)...
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Fayt Leingod
16 years ago
Here is the BGM on Fate Stay Night.,

I hope it useful, but it missed Quiet Voice and Die Lorelei (and ver 2 New Days and Turning season.,).,

Spoiler:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=TP88EQEK


Gomenasai, if it broken.,
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mibuchiha Fakku Elder
16 years ago
Awesome one there Fayt. Gonna dl it soon. Thanks.
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razama
16 years ago
Anyone else hate the order the story lines went in? I think placing HF last was pretty lame. They should of did it second and save UBW for last, not revealing that
This is a REAL spoiler so beware:
Spoiler:
shirou and archer are the same people
until the final storyline. Having sakura - who seems to be the less popular of the three - as the final story seems a little unwise.
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mibuchiha Fakku Elder
16 years ago
well, i think story wise it's ok...because i don't think popularity should affect the order of the story. it's just that...

they should make an ilya route available after we finished HF. with an ilya route available, F/SN will be perfect.
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neko-chan
16 years ago
Better than that, I think there should of been a "true" route, one that either continued after a mix of all three or one that took place showing all the girls equally. Not a harem ending, one just more focused on the holy grail war instead of which girl shirou wants to bang.
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HappyGawl
16 years ago
For me, the best route in Fate Stay Night was Heavens Feel. UBW had the best action, but Heavens Feel dealt with such a heart breaking reality, that it really drove home the point of what being a hero is in a modern world. I wasn't too keen on Sakura until I played Heavens Feel, but once I did, she ended up being my favorite of the three heroines.

Spoiler:
What I liked most about Heavens Feel was that Shirou actually grew a pair and decided to drop his childish notions of what being a hero is. He angered me in both Fate and UBW because he still seemed immature at the end. In Heaven's Feel it actually felt like he grew up.

As for Sakura, though she did sorta fall into the damsel in distress role for a good chuck of Heavens Feel, the terrible dichotomy of her existence felt like a dilemma for both the player and Shirou. I think the scene where Shirou contemplated killing Sakura in her sleep with a knife was really powerful. It was a struggle between the Shirou portrayed in Fate and UBW versus the Shirou that had to grow up to protect what was most imporatant to him. He had to make a choice, but I believe that choice derailed him from the doomed destiny that would end in him becoming the Heroic Spirit Emiya.
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mibuchiha Fakku Elder
16 years ago
Childish you say? I object, because UBW wouldn't exist if not for his ideals...

Spoiler:

Btw, the way Shirou chose Sakura over his ideals doesn't seem all that amazing to me. It just looked nothing more than someone who said he's willing to stain his own hands, only to chicken out later because he realized that someone dear is involved. Btw, when he made the choice, it's not even his ideals against Sakura, it's just a normal one life against many life he's choosing. Sakura killed tons, and is going to kill more. It's a no-brainer to anyone who has a sense of justice to kill her at that time. And yet, Shirou chose Sakura, which to me is just nothing more than being selfish.

Btw, to me, the one who actually learned that the ideal is a wrong one is Archer. He witnessed it firsthand how the world sucks and humans being selfish, and that what he's doing is nothing more than being a cleaner. He went through that stage and hence, he reached a conclusion about his ideals and humanity, and the conclusion is UBW. But even so, I'm very positive that he would choose to kill Sakura anyway because, as I said, her sins are far too great for her to atone in any way, other than dying so that she won't kill more people. So yeah, I see nothing heroic about Shirou casting away his ideals to protect Sakura. He didn't even manage to prevent Sakura from killing people after he decided to protect her. Hah.


Mod Edit
Careful next time
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HappyGawl
16 years ago
mibuchiha wrote...
Childish you say? I object, because UBW wouldn't exist if not for his ideals...
Spoiler:

Btw, the way Shirou chose Sakura over his ideals doesn't seem all that amazing to me. It just looked nothing more than someone who said he's willing to stain his own hands, only to chicken out later because he realized that someone dear is involved. Btw, when he made the choice, it's not even his ideals against Sakura, it's just a normal one life against many life he's choosing. Sakura killed tons, and is going to kill more. It's a no-brainer to anyone who has a sense of justice to kill her at that time. And yet, Shirou chose Sakura, which to me is just nothing more than being selfish.

Btw, to me, the one who actually learned that the ideal is a wrong one is Archer. He witnessed it firsthand how the world sucks and humans being selfish, and that what he's doing is nothing more than being a cleaner. He went through that stage and hence, he reached a conclusion about his ideals and humanity, and the conclusion is UBW. But even so, I'm very positive that he would choose to kill Sakura anyway because, as I said, her sins are far too great for her to atone in any way, other than dying so that she won't kill more people. So yeah, I see nothing heroic about Shirou casting away his ideals to protect Sakura. He didn't even manage to prevent Sakura from killing people after he decided to protect her. Hah.


You may want to spoiler tag that, for the consideration of those who have not played the game. Also, I will disagree with you on that point.

Spoiler:
When you mention UBW, I assume you mean the actual ability to use the reality marble. Yes, it is an impressive ability, but look at what it really is. UBW isn't so much the pinnacle of Shirou's power, as it is the destination of his life. No matter how much good he does in his life, he will just end up alone, in a field of swords. The person who Shirou will become, Emiya, isn't so much a hero as he is a martyr. It is because of his ideals that UBW is possible, but it represents how his life is chained to those ideals. Unless he decides to discard the meaning of Unlimited Blade Works, he will end up the same as Archer. You could argue that just because he has the reality marble that he doesn't have to end up like Archer, but as a counter arguement, the ideals that will lead him to that end are the basis for Unlimited Blade Works, the total giving of one's self for total justice. During his fight with Gilgamesh, though the chant was different, Shirou's UBW was the same as Archer's. You could argue that the meaning of the UBW arc was to merge the childish views of being a hero with reality, but Shirou's character didn't change all that much from the Shirou of the Fate arc; it's just that at the end of UBW, Shirou had this kick ass ability. To me, UBW represents Shirou's fate, that is, to walk of path of justice and giving one's self completely to doing the right thing, but in the end having absolutely nothing.

As for Sakura and Heavens Feel, I never said that Shirou's choice was the correct choice, but more that it was a realistic choice in the face of a terrible reality. In Fate and UBW, Shirou is presented with conflict that could be defined as heroic in nature. In Fate, he battles to end the Holy Grail war and save lives; in UBW, he battled Archer to prove that his ideal are right and that he would have no regrets, regardless of the outcome. It is all clear cut and dry, very easy choices to make, because it is obvious what is right and wrong. In Heavens Feel, the choice of what is right and wrong is not so easy to figure out. Sakura herself is a terrible victim of cruel circumstances and the murders that were inflicted during Heavens Feel wasn't something that she could totally control. Shirou is faced with saving innocent lives on both fronts. Normally, you could argue that the lives of the many outweight the lives of the few, but when a person's real life emotions are involved, the answer isn't so simple. I said that I felt Shirou grew up more in Heavens Feel over the other arcs; that is because Shirou is faced with a problem that has no clear cut answer, he'll lose regardless of what he chooses. Though he does succeed in overcoming the terrible situation in Heavens Feel, the events have permanent effects on the characters and the wieght of those events never leaves them.

To me, Shirou was just a guy who was thrust in a terrible situation in Heavens Feel and he had to make a choice. That result of that choice is something that he will have to carry for the rest of his life. Though this is a story of fiction, the meaning of that is something that everyone can relate to.
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mibuchiha Fakku Elder
16 years ago
HappyGawl wrote...
Spoiler:
Shirou is faced with saving innocent lives on both fronts. Normally, you could argue that the lives of the many outweigh the lives of the few, but when a person's real life emotions are involved, the answer isn't so simple. I said that I felt Shirou grew up more in Heavens Feel over the other arcs; that is because Shirou is faced with a problem that has no clear cut answer, he'll lose regardless of what he chooses. Though he does succeed in overcoming the terrible situation in Heavens Feel, the events have permanent effects on the characters and the weight of those events never leaves them.


Uh, sorry for the rather irresponsible post...I'll be more careful from now on.

By the way...

Spoiler:
Innocent, you say? Ok, I won't say Sakura is completely guilty because it's obvious that no one would be stupid enough to choose to be raped by weird worms everyday but....I wouldn't say she's innocent either. I mean, just look at her attitude. That yandere attitude, and also the "I'm teh most powerful" kind of thinking...is that what you call innocent? Sure, you may argue that it were her circumstances that lead her to such a mental state but....as Rin said in the (omg so cool) fight against Sakura when she complained about herself, "Shit happens. In the real world, it happens". Clear and simple. So why would she be given any pity, when all she does is go along with that predetermined fate, while bitching about it? That's why I won't say she's innocent.

As for Shirou, it's simple. You've said it yourself, his emotions got the better of him, and he was unable to make the obviously more just decision. Now that's what I mean by selfishness.
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HappyGawl
16 years ago
mibuchiha wrote...
Spoiler:
Innocent, you say? Ok, I won't say Sakura is completely guilty because it's obvious that no one would be stupid enough to choose to be raped by weird worms everyday but....I wouldn't say she's innocent either. I mean, just look at her attitude. That yandere attitude, and also the "I'm teh most powerful" kind of thinking...is that what you call innocent? Sure, you may argue that it were her circumstances that lead her to such a mental state but....as Rin said in the (omg so cool) fight against Sakura when she complained about herself, "Shit happens. In the real world, it happens". Clear and simple. So why would she be given any pity, when all she does is go along with that predetermined fate, while bitching about it? That's why I won't say she's innocent.

As for Shirou, it's simple. You've said it yourself, his emotions got the better of him, and he was unable to make the obviously more just decision. Now that's what I mean by selfishness.


I wanted to say, I do like your points concerning Shirou's growth in UBW. I think I came off too strongly in regards to how he developed in that arc and you helped me look at it in a different way. I do have to say that Unlimited Blade Works and Heavens Feel beat the Fate arc, storywise, by a long shot; which is funny because in retrospect, Saber does beat Rin and Sakura as heroine material by a large margin.

Spoiler:
Remember, she wasn't just raped by worms. It was stated that she suffered horrific sexual molestation from muliple men, as well as, her brother Shinji, on multiple occassions, so she had it incredibly rough. You also have to remember that Rin wasn't even a sister to Sakura and just watched her from afar, so any comments Rin made were done so without even knowing the full extent of the terror that Sakura was forced to endure for years. As to her power, I don't remember her ever saying she was the most powerful, but rather, she was drowning in the pleasure of knowing that with her power, she could actually do something to change her terrible situation. I'm not trying to justify her actions at all, what Sakura is guilty for is wrong. What I am trying to say is to try to understand the situation from the perspective of her character. When you do so, you realize that Sakura also needed to be saved.

As for Shirou...well, he is an idiot, that much can be certain, though not nearly as bad as Shiki from Tsukihime. As for his choice, he would have been condemned regardless of what choice he made. If he chose to kill Sakura, than he would have been guilty of killing the most important person in his life and that choice, though it would have saved people, would ultimatly lead him to that barren field with nothing but blades as company.

Was his choice selfish? Yes, it was selfish; anything that has to do with protecting the person that you love is going to be portrayed as selfish. He made that choice and the deaths of the people who Sakura inadvertently killed is something that both he and Sakura are going to have to carry for the rest of their lives. If anything, Shirou saved himself as well in Heavens Feel. Emiya would have spent his whole life saving as many people as he could, but in the end, no one would have lifted a finger to save him. If anything, it advocated the message that a person has to find their own happiness and protect that before they can even hope to help others. Living too selflessly doesn't create a hero, only a martyr.
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mibuchiha Fakku Elder
16 years ago
HappyGawl wrote...
I wanted to say, I do like your points concerning Shirou's growth in UBW. I think I came off too strongly in regards to how he developed in that arc and you helped me look at it in a different way. I do have to say that Unlimited Blade Works and Heavens Feel beat the Fate arc, storywise, by a long shot; which is funny because in retrospect, Saber does beat Rin and Sakura as heroine material by a large margin.

Spoiler:
Remember, she wasn't just raped by worms. It was stated that she suffered horrific sexual molestation from muliple men, as well as, her brother Shinji, on multiple occassions, so she had it incredibly rough. You also have to remember that Rin wasn't even a sister to Sakura and just watched her from afar, so any comments Rin made were done so without even knowing the full extent of the terror that Sakura was forced to endure for years. As to her power, I don't remember her ever saying she was the most powerful, but rather, she was drowning in the pleasure of knowing that with her power, she could actually do something to change her terrible situation. I'm not trying to justify her actions at all, what Sakura is guilty for is wrong. What I am trying to say is to try to understand the situation from the perspective of her character. When you do so, you realize that Sakura also needed to be saved.

As for Shirou...well, he is an idiot, that much can be certain, though not nearly as bad as Shiki from Tsukihime. As for his choice, he would have been condemned regardless of what choice he made. If he chose to kill Sakura, than he would have been guilty of killing the most important person in his life and that choice, though it would have saved people, would ultimately lead him to that barren field with nothing but blades as company.

Was his choice selfish? Yes, it was selfish; anything that has to do with protecting the person that you love is going to be portrayed as selfish. He made that choice and the deaths of the people who Sakura inadvertently killed is something that both he and Sakura are going to have to carry for the rest of their lives. If anything, Shirou saved himself as well in Heavens Feel. Emiya would have spent his whole life saving as many people as he could, but in the end, no one would have lifted a finger to save him. If anything, it advocated the message that a person has to find their own happiness and protect that before they can even hope to help others. Living too selflessly doesn't create a hero, only a martyr.


Whoa, nice way of putting it. Ok, here goes...

Spoiler:
Hmm...I know that Sakura was not raped by just worms, but received many form of torture as well...but hey, that's just the example that I take as the worst....But for me what you said about Rin is wrong. Yeah, Rin wasn't there to witness everything Sakura went through, but she is a very clever one, so I think that just by looking at Sakura's holy grail mode, she should have a very good idea of Sakura's suffering. But still even if she didn't know anything, what she said was right on. Shit happens, and there's nothing she can do about it at that point of time. Accept it and move on. Ok, Rin was never being a sister to Sakura but...so what? Sakura sounded like Rin's supposed to do something about it...but what? She was not able to do anything about it...which is why she did nothing. Then again she still shows that she loves Sakura, which to me, is a very nice thing to do because it shows that Rin's willing to accept Sakura despite her being a mass murderer.

By the "I'm teh most powerful" attitude...well, that's what I meant. She abused her power thinking that it could help her in relieving her of the pain and sufferings. But obviously she herself discovered that the power did nothing to ease her pain...and that's why she abused that power on others. To me...it's no different with a kid taking it out on an even weaker kid just because he was bullied. Yeah, if you look from her perspective, just like from the bullied kid's, she too needs to be saved but still, that doesn't change the fact that after all she did, she deserves no salvation at all.

As for Shirou, well, he's not just an idiot. I dunno what to label of him in HF...but for sure what he did was wrong. Yeah, he'll be damned either way but...as I said, at that moment that was the obvious choice. And I've never said anything about him having to live as a hero just because he decided to kill Sakura. He can just do it the Rin's way, make the better decision, and the move on. That way he still can be a just person and doesn't have to end up at UBW as a martyr. He got so may better options to choose from, and yet he decided to be selfish at the worst possible moment. That's why I think HF Shirou is way more fucked up than Fate and UBW Shirou. Because while in Fate and UBW he was just being too extreme with an otherwise good ideal, in HF he decided to place his and Sakura's love before the lives of so many that Sakura killed, and will kill. He decided all by himself that is not to be punished, despite the fact that Sakura's action is to be damned by all sane moral standards.


So yeah, I still think Sakura sucks. She bitches too much.

Oh, btw, I do agree that Saber > Rin & Sakura but, UBW > Fate & HF. To me the problem with Fate is...

Spoiler:
the fact that Saber is too similar with Shirou. And that makes Shirou becomes conceited and tries to save Saber from her wrong wishes, giving him no time to reflect and realize that he is more fucked up. Then again, Saber just loves her country more than anything else....and since her problem is that obvious, of course Shirou won't realize about his problems....
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Poki#3
16 years ago
I just finished this game and man...
Spoiler:
I feel exhausted. I'm gonna need a full days rest to recuperate after HF. I needed one after Fate too.
The story really moved me, I don't know how to express it, really... It has some flaws here and there. Mostly the "hypocrite Shirou" moments, when he's taking care of others, while not taking care of himself, that is doing the exact same thing that he's trying to prevent. Archer was partially right in that regard at least.


@mibuchiha
Spoiler:
I see that people are talking about Sakura. Maybe it's because I'm still fresh over it, but HF is IMHO the best scenario, followed by Fate and then UBW.

Yeah, Shirou threw away his beliefs for the person he loved. Love can make you do things that don't seem rational. As far as the 3 heroines, Sakura is the one Shirou was most likely to fall in love - he knew her for years. Saber is a "love at first sight" kind of deal, and he knew Rin just slightly more then any other random shoolmate (and jsut because she was famous).

Also, I think that killing Sakura would accomplish nothing in the long run. Assuming Sakura dies (I didn't select that choice yet, so I don't know what happens, outside of a bad ending), the spirits from her body would probably flow into Ilia. Rider would dissapear, and that would leave Zouken and Assassin as the "winners" of the war. Knowing Zouken he has something planed for such an occasion. Assassin managed to sneak into the Emiya household once already. Shirou would be dead. I don't know if Rin would be able to offer much resistance after that. The only saving grace would be if Saber and Berserker would somehow break free from the darkness, but I doubt it.
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mibuchiha Fakku Elder
16 years ago
@Poki: Well, What you said is true but...to me it's not important whether Zouken has backup plan or not. It's just that ethically Shirou's decision was selfish, that's all.

Btw how come you said UBW is the worst among the three? You sure you didn't skip any of the Shirou's conflicts?
[size=7]And also Lancer and Assassin's GARness?[/h]
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Poki#3
16 years ago
mibuchiha wrote...
@Poki: Well, What you said is true but...to me it's not important whether Zouken has backup plan or not. It's just that ethically Shirou's decision was selfish, that's all.

Spoiler:
That's the whole point. Yes, it was selfish. He knows it. But really, this isn't a "one over many" anymore, it's "someone you love over strangers". It's not a case of calculating risk and reward anymore when you bring feelings into the mix, and that's what tor him apart inside, because he wasn't ready for it.
Hypothetically, if we where in a similar situation, if we could save a few strangers for the price of our loved one, would any of us do it? Would you be able to hurt the most precious thing you have? Shirou doesn't care about himself, but he cared for Sakura. Harming yourself is easy, harming others is not.


mibuchiha wrote...
Btw how come you said UBW is the worst among the three? You sure you didn't skip any of the Shirou's conflicts?
[size=7]And also Lancer and Assassin's GARness?[/h]
Worst among the three - yes, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Far from it.
Personally, I like spears, and I thought Assassin was cool. UBW has more Lancer and Assassin then the other scenarios.
Spoiler:
I can't really say why I like UBW the least. Maybe it's because it sets the romance subplot to the backburner (Rin don't do much more then usual). Maybe it's because I don't find Shirou nearly as interesting as Saber or Sakura. I really don't know.

And no, it's not because the lack of sex scenes, I'm not that low. I though HF had way to much. That Tohsaka/Rider dream was just stupid and an obvious "we have to have at least 2 scenes with every heroine" maneuver. I liked that the last scene was just glanced through though.


Let me talk a bit about the endings though, because maybe that has something to do with it.
Spoiler:
Fate's ending caught me completely and utterly off guard. Saber disappeared. I kind of expected it, but I though that somehow, some way she would come back to him. Cliche? I don't care.
But no. We see Shirou going about his normal life, never forgetting about Saber, because he loves her. He'll probably turn old and die never loving anyone else again. And if that wasn't enough, they had THE NERVE to show us Saber's last hour. That was a very low blow and I was down for the count for a whole day after that. However the fact that it stirred up those emotions in me is probably why I like the scenario. I got used to seeing happy endings at the conclusion of my stories, but here I was deprived of that and it threw salt into the wound to boot. I admire the writer for that.

Now, Fate was a love story, but UBW was a journey of self discovery, and a pretty big change of pace. Maybe that's why I was disappointed in it. I was expecting to be moved by something else, but for the most part it's straightforward. The battles, and the fights Shirou has are probably the best (maybe excluding the fight with Kotomine at the end of HF) but it didn't move me overall.
The endings, like I said are mostly happy. Rin goes to London to polish her skills, Shirou probably goes with her and they live happy. The Good ending is nice, because Saber is there, and I think that fact alone makes me like it more then the True one, but on the other hand, Rin probably won't be able to train magic, because of the strain Saber is putting on her. Saber also can't really fight for the same reason, so their happiness is kind of shallow.

Also, in hindsight, Shinji is still alive, and that rubs me the wrong way after what I saw in the 3rd scenario. The fact that one one will notice Sakura's suffering in both the Fate and UBW storylines is always at the back of my head...
Am I a sucker for love stories? I don't know, maybe...

And speaking of love stories, HF is basically a return to the original concept, but with a much bigger tragedy and darker story. The amount of "WTF?" moments is staggering.
The good ending... isn't a good ending at all. It's almost like a rehash of Fate's ending, but with Shirou in place of Saber and Sakura in place of Shirou. It's horrible. I hate it. I don't care that we hear Rin's (great)(grand) douther.
The true ending is as close to a real true ending to the story as we can get. I am worried about Shirou though. His Magic Circut is busted since he... well... died. Rin says something that maybe with training he'll be able to use his Reality Marble... I somehow doubt that. His memories too. We don't know what's going on in his head during the Epilogue. How much memories are in his soul, and how much where in his body? How much was destroyed by the Projections? We know he had to miss a whole school year to get better so it's very serious... In any case, Shirou (and Ilya) sacrificed themselves to save others. (PS: Sakura still gets energy as a Holy Grail. Why didn't this happen in the good ending? Is it because Shirou destroys the Grail in that one, and Ilya just sort of closes the Grail here? This worries me that there might be another Holy Grail War someday. We can only assume what happened to Ilya. We don't know if there are any Eizbern (sp) descendent's left to make another vessel, nor if anything will happen to Sakura.)

But there's always a catch. Saber. I'm not worried about the other heroic spirits, because they're just "copies", but Saber was, more or less, the real thing. God only knows what that corruption did to her. It was probably her worst fate out of all the stories.

So yeah, overall, maybe it's because I'm totally not used to downer endings and they shock me? I had a similar feeling when I played Call of Duty 4 for instance (nuke scene and the ending). A lot of people don't like downer endings, and I kind of don't like them too, but they make me think about the characters and the fact, that not everything is OK yet, and that they still have more struggles ahead of them.


Wow, look at me go on with the rambling... sigh, since I'm here, let me talk a bit about the Pendant and Shirou's fate.
Spoiler:
In HF Rin notes that the pendant that Archer gave her has no magical energy, but the one that she used on Shirou has a bit left. Shirou probably used the remaining energy subconsciously to get out of the water during the True Sakura ending, and that would mean that Archer probably comes from that time line. It's never explained what sort of tragedy happened that caused Shirou to make a pact with the world. I was kind of expecting to see that contract happen in this story. There where points where I though, that Shirou will do it in that storyline, and save the people that Sakura killed. But the story never did go where I wanted it to so... Sequel material... It does create a paradox though, because Shirou is alive because of Archer's arm... Not that I have anything against paradoxes. Oh, and Archer did warn Shirou about throwing away his beliefs. Maybe because he experienced it himself, like I said? Or maybe I'm just thinking too hard, and Archer is from a totally different timeline.


Then there's that Last Episode patch.
Spoiler:
And that just messes with your head. I don't get it. It's a continuation of the Fate story, that's for sure but... the only way I can explain it is that they both reunited in heaven after they died. Really... that just creates some plot holes with the whole "reincarnation" and "heroic spirit repository" thing (unless that's that, and Shirou became a heroic spirit too) and doesn't calm me at all. Anyone have a better suggestion?


Pheww... Sorry for making you read all that ^^;
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mibuchiha Fakku Elder
16 years ago
Wow, I read through the entire thing. I guess I finally discovered why you liked UBW the least....this.

Poki#3 wrote...
Am I a sucker for love stories? I don't know, maybe...


And well, yeah, I know that the decision Shirou made was more than a simple "one vs. many" choice. But remember, those many that were killed have their personal lives too. Friendship, love, family and all that. Each and every of them had no less emotions about those things than Shirou. But Shirou chose to neglect all those in favor of his own...yeah, all those people may be strangers to him, but surely he was well aware that those people too had their own happiness. So why would he put his before all those? Selfishness, that's why. You may argue that's it's for his loved one or whatever, but to me his inability to judge things objectively made that decision a selfish one.

And about the Fate Last Episode...well, I assume it happens in Avalon. Can't really think of any other option....
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Poki#3
16 years ago
mibuchiha wrote...
And well, yeah, I know that the decision Shirou made was more than a simple "one vs. many" choice. But remember, those many that were killed have their personal lives too. Friendship, love, family and all that. Each and every of them had no less emotions about those things than Shirou. But Shirou chose to neglect all those in favor of his own...yeah, all those people may be strangers to him, but surely he was well aware that those people too had their own happiness. So why would he put his before all those? Selfishness, that's why. You may argue that's it's for his loved one or whatever, but to me his inability to judge things objectively made that decision a selfish one.
Spoiler:
I didn't get the impression that he did it for himself, more like... he did it for Sakura. He never cared about himself.

Also, I'm not totally sure I got the order straight, but didn't Sakura not kill anybody innocent after that scene? She killed Shinji and Assassin, and kind of killed Kotomine and Zouken, but that's it...
0
mibuchiha Fakku Elder
16 years ago
He did it for Sakura, yeah. Because he cares for her...then again, I can just rephrase the issue. What makes him care for Sakura so much to put her happiness before those that were killed? Same difference to me...

Spoiler:
And iirc, she did kill after the scene. At least she attempted to get Ilya.
0
Poki#3
16 years ago
mibuchiha wrote...
He did it for Sakura, yeah. Because he cares for her...then again, I can just rephrase the issue. What makes him care for Sakura so much to put her happiness before those that were killed? Same difference to me...
Spoiler:
And for me that's the beauty of it. You know, Kiritsugu said, that a hero can only save the people he chooses to save, hence, heroes are selfish by nature. He could be considered selfish regardless. It's a lose-lose situation. It's morally ambiguous. That's why I love that route, and F/SN in general.
In any case, nether one of us is probably going to convince the other here, but it's a nice discussion ;]

mibuchiha wrote...
Spoiler:
And iirc, she did kill after the scene. At least she attempted to get Ilya.
Spoiler:
She killed Shinji. Turned. She almost killed Rin. The didn't want to kill Ilya, but was prepared to if she resisted. Then they go to the castle - she kind of killed Kotomine... and you might say she kind of killed Shirou, since he removed the shroud to fight Berserker, but that's very, very indirect. After that, she gave them the warning, Killed Assassin, almost killed Zouken, and almost killed Rin (and Shirou) again. I think this is correct, if I'm wrong somewhere, please point it out. In any case, I don't think that she killed anyone innocent after she killed Gilgamesh and realized that her dreams are actually real, and that she's the one doing this.

Really, we can debate how much is she at fault, and what should be her punishment without end. How are we supposed to know how much of her personality and sanity remained after she turned into the shadow? Is she responsible for what the shadow was doing before that or not? this is all very not black and white, and three dimensional, another reason I love the story.
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