Israeli/Palestinian conflict

Fpod, it's true that Israel has allowed for truckloads of food, but whereas the regular amount used to be in the 200s, it's now down to something like 40 truckloads. That's why the UN describes the situation to be a humanitarian crisis.

I have no sympathy for the Hamas. I do, however, feel terribly that so many civilians are being killed, that the infrastructure of Palestine is further destroyed, and that the region is in chaos. Like I implied in my previous post, these events really are not helping Israel's international image; furthermore, it's making Israel appear like a transgressor in the eyes of many countries in the Middle East, which will further prevent future compromise/negotiations (for example-- hadn't Egypt recently recognized Israel as a nation? And now they're like "Oh...nvm.")

Anyway, it's not like Israel has done nothing in the past either. I remember reading an article in the post sometime last year about Israeli soldiers opening fire on a crowd of Palestinians who threw rocks on them. Was it foolish that the Palestinians threw rocks in the first place? Yes, of course. But, at the end, the "sledgehammer to the fly" analogy still applies.

The Hamas = cowardly flies. Yet Israel's response constitutes the raising of a sledgehammer that also destroys the innocent in its pathway, and harms others indirectly, while giving rise to greater enmity from the Middle East.

The Hamas needs to be extirpated, true-- but not like this. Palestinians are people too.

Hamas buries itself amongst the population. They don't act as a standing army. They wear civilian clothing during their attacks. So what is Israel supposed to do? Israel tells the target ahead of time when it will launch an attack. It repeatedly warned Hamas to stop firing rockets otherwise it would retaliate. Now, that Israel is tired of being Hamas's punching bag the world condemns Israel for trying to protect it's people.

Palestinians may be human too but, the majority protect Hamas. They send their children to be soldiers in Hamas. Civilians store weapons, ammunition in their homes, their schools, their hospitals for Hamas. Clerics store the same things in their mosques. The schools and mosques in Palestine teach their children that the Israeli people are murders who should be killed to the last man. Thus they should be treated as members of Hamas. They should share the same fate as Hamas.

It's not like Israel doesn't want peace but, Hamas and other Palestinian groups have constantly broke any agreements. Nobody should shed a tear for the Palestinian people. They choose to elect Hamas as their representative government knowing full well that Hamas wants to destroy Israel. If you want to talk about the poor conditions in Palestine you can blame Hamas for its ineffective and downright pathetic attempts at infrastructure. It's economic situation can be blamed on the trade embargoes against it due to it's decision to refuse to accept Israel as a state.

Because the different of the power between the booms used by Israel, and the rockets used by Hamas. Different power can attract symphathy.

Also, Mulsim is spread too much in the world, not like Judaism. With this condition, "religion" can raised their voice. Also, on what "some" Muslim usually think, "We Defend our Religion"...

Something bad really happen here in Indonesia. Some Stupid Muslim blockade American restaurant, goods supplies from U.N., and roads.. I know, this is a clasic move that they always do whatever happen to other Muslim in this world, but this is really disturbing.
Ah yeah, some muslim here also want to join this war, to help Palesninian. No wonder, because they are already brainwashed by something like Hamas here, it's called FPI that always destroy and destroy whatever to "Protect the religion". It's just like Al Kaeda, or Hizbolla, or whatever, if they exist in your country.

Interesting to say the least. People around me often wonder why I view religion with such disdain.

Though with methods that they (muslim extremists) have been using in France and various other areas around Europe to basically make the stupid/uneducated side with them. I remember reading a while back about the ten steps that some terrorist or sympathizer gave out as a way to non-violently take over the world. Basically, use our freedoms and ways against us. Due to past events and the information I know I can't see a positive outcome to this without massive bloodshed. Though unlike a standing army that can be met in the battlefield. We will have groups that will live amongst us then attack. As I said there will be no positive outcome unless religion itself is destroyed.

Fpod: I understand that you feel strongly about your stance, and that's admirable. However, I think that it's extremely ethnocentric, and even callous, that you feel that we should not feel badly for the lives of innocents. I mean-- birth is a game of chance, and luck is differentially spread. What if you had been born a Palestinian?

Recently, I read a really powerful book written by an American journalist, called "Three Cups of Tea." The book advocates education as a way to ensure that children in countries where extremists exist are exposed to more equal education, so that less brainwashing takes place, and they're not taught only from a "religious" point of view. And let's be real-- religion is culturally determined; the way Islam is practiced in Iraq diverges greatly from the practice of this religion in a secular country such as Turkey.

Also, Preze, you make it sound like all Muslims harbor a secret inner-terrorist, lol. But, like I touch on in my previous paragraph, culture, politics, and education make a huge difference in the way people perceive and approach the world. Over-generalization only creates more problems by promoting an "us versus them" mentality.

For now, I will keep innocent Palestinians and Israelis alike in my prayers. No one (well... excluding evil terrorist bastards, but even then, I have to wonder about the circumstances that drove them to terrorism) deserves to live in the hell that the Gaza strip has become.

I view religion through a Durkheimian lens. Society begins with religion; religion is a primary reality. So, religion is the encounter of society with an ideal; religion simultaneously creates and gets created by society. It is created by community as the symbolic self-manifestation of its own depth; and in turn religion creates the community, since it teaches the members common values, initiates the new generation into the living tradition, and confronts the entire community with the highest ideals present in its history and thus acts as an impetus for social change and renewal. In fact, he wrote that one "[cannot] be a social being, that is to say, he could not be a man, if he had not acquired [religion].”

It's just that, to reiterate, culture and historical conflict change the practice of organized religion; something pure can be corrupted. :(

@Sarene:
Hmm... yeah, i'm sorry that i can only view this conflict with my glasses.
Of course, "if i born there" thing can totally change how you think. But that also means that "If that is, then why i alive". Because if you think like that, i believe that you will lost your meaning of live.

I also not agree with a religion to be destroyed. Just like what Sarene said, some organized religion can corrupt everything.
Therefore, those organized religion is the one that must be stopped. Just stop their fool action, because we can't change what people believe.

Sounds like convoluted nonsense. I see religion as a tool that explained that which couldn't be explained in any other way. Modern Day religion I see as a mental disorder. A mass hysteria if you will.

(I swiped this from someone else)



If only one person believe this then we'd think he was crazy, am I right? Now what would happen if Millions of people thought this was the truth? Another example Russell's teapot



Expanded on by Richard Dawkins



As of this century religion serve no purpose in my eyes. Any "morals" that people claim that only religion can teach us (such as not stealing, killing,etc) we can teach our children to do because it's the right thing.

When I think of religious people I can only think of 1) the people who shout me down because I'm an Atheist. 2) the people who want to stripe away my rights for being an Atheist and not one of "god's children" 3) the people who want me to live on my knees with my face in the dirt and pray to their god otherwise they will kill me.

Without Islam or Christianity there wouldn't be a "holy war" no "Jihad". No suicide bombers because "Allah will reward them", no abortion clinic bombings. The list goes on and on. In my eyes the world would be a lot better if religion was abolished

The only way to successfully get rid of religion at this point would be something crazy like removing all memory from it from everyone everywhere. People are too attached to it.
Also, it's possible that some people need things that would rationally be considered large scale lies to continue on with their lives. Things like religion as well as concepts of love and universal justice; all the little things people seem to hold on to in life that give meaning to it.
Most people could not live with absolute truth, they simply wont accept it, and if they did, they'd just kill themselves.
Maybe not true for everyone, but it seems true for most.
Of course, the people who live without these lies probably wouldn't consider it such a bad thing if everyone who needed them to live killed themselves or generally gave up on life.
But it would be most of the world.

Ah... back to religion again eh.

Religion is the proof of why people seek "power more than himself", to make sure that "IT" will help them, so everything will be allright for them. That is religion for me.
The rest of teaching is just added guide.
And so, this way of knowing something, makes the war. Not that if there is no religion, then there is no war.

And FPOD, if you said that you're an Atheist, as a religious person, then one thing in my mind: "That's normal." Because you believe that you have enough "power" to go on in this world. Hmm... Make sense?

Hey, I didn't say it was plausible


I agree with you so far. I often compare religion with the matrix. "Some people just aren't ready to be unplugged. Some will even kill to defend it (religion)"



I like where this train is heading.



You can say I have the "power" to go alone. I say, I don't need a crutch. I don't need to think "Karma/god will equalize the universe" or "God will punish the bad guys". I have a very "Nothing is going to change unless you MAKE it change attitude". God isn't going to help you get a job. YOU have to go out and get a job. That guy stole your girlfriend? Break his nose. That guy stole a lot of money from you? Break his leg. I don't mean solve every problem with violence but, you get the idea. Nobody will get punished for anything unless you MAKE them get punished.

I also don't rationalize my failures or my hardships as "God is testing me". I see it as "I fucked up. Make sure to not do it again"[/quote]

And that's pretty much why you can live without the day-to-day lies, yeah? Personal accountability and initiative to handle things in your life yourself without going running to daddy and telling him the mean man stole your toys.
...That statement made your father into an omnipresent being. But if your father was anything like mine, than he probably thought he was one...
More on topic, you are correct, sir. Asking some being who has never shown itself or done anything for me to help me just to avoid personal responsibility is in no way rational.

Speaking of Fathers. I wouldn't go so far as to say he thinks he's omnipresent. More like all knowing and that you should know what he's thinking or wanting without him having to explain it.

This HAS been drifting away form the topic at hand. More to the point about religion is that it is being used to brainwash people like the Palestinians into blowing themselves up. If you want to talk about religion and making people do things. Bush claims that God spoke to him about invading Iraq.

If it wasn't for religion the majority of the violence between Israel and Palestine would go away. It would be more like
"Hey, this was our land."

"No, this is our land"

"I have an idea how about we both settle here? No sense is fighting over something that can be shared right?"

False. People use organized religion as an excuse to do terrible things to each other, but if they were to overcome cultural misconceptions, not live in oppressive poverty where they are ruled by power hungry governments, and have access to education and actual democracy (or some peaceful form of governance), then things would be different. But, even if religion were abolished overnight, while these other social factors remained the same-- people would find another excuse. Perhaps skin color; perhaps socioeconomic status; anything goes.

And anyway, I define religion more broadly than the major world religions. I consider atheism a religion. Even capitalism can be a religion. Like Durkheim, I view religion as any cohesive social force that brings people who share similar beliefs together.

Your definition of religion seems more similar to Marx's. An opiate of the masses. Then again, he viewed the use of religion as a way to perpetuate economic injustice by allowing oppressors to make the exploited more hopeful. -shrugs- ...now that I think more, that also seems to be applicable to the Middle East, since terrorism corrupts religion to justify inhumane actions.

Then again, you will find many peaceful people who practice a religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.), and really feel guidance due to having an additional religious identity...

I consider myself a spiritual atheist; I'm never going to tell anyone "you're gonna go to hell!" just because they don't share my same beliefs. I think that would be nonsense. If there is an after-life, how can anyone know in the first place that their approach to life is the correct way?

...that pachyderm religion sounds cute btw, lol.

for the conflict that raging now(end of 2008)...i have to blame Hamas...they're the one who start attacking israel first...they should think first...their country is really in bad shape...poor,no advance in technology,poverty,hunger and no one to protected them compare to israel which always got high tech military weapon and always got supported by america for whatever they are doing even if it's very cruelty and vicious...i don't root for palestine or israel...i'm just pity with the victims especially women and innocent children...right now the only thing i can do is donating some money to the palestine's victims...may this conflict stop...i hope... :cry: the OIC seems doing nothing...all they can do just giving warning but no action to israel...i wonder how long this going to keep on... :cry:

Those aspects I mentioned would cease to exist without religion as they are purely religious terms. Only Muslim fanatics use "Jihad". 72 virgin suicide bombers, etc all exist due to religion. Remove religion and you will certainly see an end to most if not all of these events. Suicide bombers may continue but, it's harder to convince a guy to blow himself up without the whole "Allah" and virgins bit.




The more you explain Durkheim's concept of religion the more I think he was a moron who didn't understand the concept. Though with being instrumental in the creation of sociology and anthropology. I guess his words do hold some merit. Our definitions of religion are almost polar opposite. You see Atheism as a religion. I see it as the absence of religion. You see Capitalism as a religion I see it as an economic system.



The three points marx makes against religion do echo my own thoughts. Though the economic babble isn't a shared idea. Though I can see his side though the pastors who earn hundreds of thousands of dollars from their churches in order to retire. They are men of the cloth and are supposed to preach the Gospel and live a humble life. Owning a house bigger than one I will ever own isn't being humble. While there may be peaceful practitioners it still doesn't change the fact that I view them as mentally weak. All the evidence in my life only leads to that fact. I see the peaceful people are weak and the fanatics and mentally ill.

That's an oxymoron. I would call you an Agnostic at best (due to the "spiritual" part). Our definitions of religion and Atheism are so different that you might as well be on Alpha Centauri (yes, I realize it's a star)

i really wonder why would people see atheism as a religion. well, people who're being atheists cuz they just want too fuck all morals are in different category, as they're morons, and heck, they just got the whole thing wrong there. anyway, atheism is something you..well, go through tons of info out there, be it religious teachings and/or scientific proofs, and think all of it over and decide for yourself. atheism needs no child indoctrination for its own spreading, and i don't think you can make a child actually "think it over" anyway. the whole thing is different from the way religion is taught, so why would it be seen as a religion. you can't have faith in atheism, for if you actually do, you have faith in nothing, which contradicts the whole thing about 'having faith'.

and yeah, i agree with fpod that atheism is not a religion, but absence of it instead. one more, morals do NOT depend on religion. come on, realize it already.

Mibuchiha-- I suppose my definition of religion is broader. Feel free to refer to my previous posts.

Fpod-- You've misunderstood jihad; jihad is actually supposed to be an inner (sometimes outer) struggle to understand and truly practice Islam. For example, a college kid who, after being bombarded with the media's images of Islam (which is definitely less than positive, I think you'll agree :D), might be like "Oh... these people also claim they're Muslim? In that case, I don't want to be one, it all seems so violent."

But, given time, if the person in this example realizes that suicide bombers and the like pervert religion, and are not really Muslim, and personally make peace with their religion after their struggle (their jihad), they can be at peace with themselves and the world.

Muslims are taught the story of the woman who would regularly throw trash on the prophet as he walked down a particular path.
The prophet never responded in kind to the woman's abuse. Instead, when she one day failed to attack him, he went to her home to inquire about her condition. It turned out she was sick, so he cleaned, cooked, and cared for her.

Here's a paragraph from a NY Times article I once bookmarked:

yea, it sounds like we have the same stance on this issue~
which organization are you donating money to, btw? i need to figure out where i can donate money, w/o it being swindled. gah, lack of transparency = evil.

sarene: i can see that your definition of religion is broader, and i notice that you're especially leaning to islam...

well, putting that aside, even if religion is something broader, the whole thing stem from that tiny bit of origin, right? so, if that bit of origin is fucked up, i can see no way it can be a good whole. and i'm not saying this is a sure thing, but as long as it's history, there's more than enough chance it was altered to reach some end. and as religion needs itself to be the pure righteousness and justice symbol, i see more than enough motive there to stir up the story. well, this is a speculation, but no one can deny its possibility.

and about the perversion to religion stuff...in islamic studies, qur'anic studies to be exact, there's some method called abrogation. putting aside that the abrogation method itself stinks of contradiction...all the war verses abrogate the peace ones. so how can you say the terrorists are sullying the religion? isn't the go-to-war orders are the more up-to-date ones?

p/s: i give the islamic examples because i'm more familiar with it. we don't talk about parts we don't know about, don't we?