Israeli/Palestinian conflict

lol, well the point I was trying to get across is when you get down to the details is that it would not be justice to place one group back and evict the other. I agree that splitting the region would be a better alternative, but as I have said before - that is unlikely to stop the fighting, I am confident that if the Palestinians were to be given an inch, they would come back for the rest at a later date.

I think the root of the problem was that you thought I was replying to your post, but in reality I was replying to the general public who post here on that matter. Well, it seems it's cleared up now so I guess we're good.

If you look at it like that then Italy could claim that half of the Europe belongs to them coz Roman Empire had it back then..
Or, I dunno Croatia, Serbia or even Russia could claim Carphatian mountains coz all Slavenic people origin from there...

Israel couldn't form a state simply on the fact that thousand years ago they had it somewhere in the middle east...

So you're now the second person to insert your own ideas into my posts to make up things I haven't said. Put on your reading glasses and start over. The answer is right on this page... Read my comments you might pick up the many hints that I never said such a thing.

[Minor detail]The Roman empire conquered lands of the Gauls, Spanish, Germanic tribes and even Carthage, Jerusalem,etc) thus making them a bad comparison for this discussion. Might as well try to argue that Egypt, Israel, Palestine,etc should belong to Greece since Alexander the Great conquered those lands[/minor detail]

Lets just take the region. Split it in half. Tell everybody to shut their whore mouths. If they bitch, then they'll have to share the same country. If they still don't get along. Fuck'em and put a new Disney World there. Turn the entire region into a parking lot for a Super, Mega, Awesomely huge theme park.

Agreed?

cih....the people of israel is really smart...special...
than a palestina people....israels armory tank or all of the weapons...
this is a kind of a shit...
i know palestina will be the winner some day...

I'm not sure how many are aware of this but the doctrine and long-term goal of Hamas is simple:

"The destruction of Israel"


A quotation from Imam Hassan al-Banna : ""Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."


The implications of this is absolutely bone chilling to me. There is nothing subtle about the statement, it's a blatant and outright declaration of hostility and for the past decades it has proven to be nothing less. In the face of such a threat Israel *must* exercise arms and force or be consumed and destroyed, her people cast out, exiled without a nation or worst.

Then comes the dispute of "borders". Israel won alot of it's land in the 6 day war in an epic victory against the host of Arabs. Myriad nations combined their might in a concerted effort to defeat and cast out a long persecuted race, but they fought back and in grand fashion won. Now at this point, I must ask you to stop and think for a moment, should the Arab host been successful in defeating Israel:

What do you think would have happened to the Israelis?

Do you think 30 years later (should they have not been entirely cast out into the gulf) that the Arabs would give back the land seized?

What sanctions do you think would have been imposed on Israel and her people?


Personally, I think that in the face of such prejudice and hate; Israel has no choice but to fight back. A show of strength now would deter a horrible but almost certainly inevitable confrontation later on. If Israel cannot deal with these militants now, it would almost certainly be perceived as weakness by many of its other foes who would be emboldened perhaps enough to try something that would no doubt lead to terrible grief in the near future for both sides.

What I DO NOT AGREE WITH however is the way the Israelis go about dealing with this threat. I am not a politician, neither am I a soldier but I strongly believe subtlety and respect for civilian lives should always be a priority.



Also: I believe alot of the grief that has befallen the folk of the gulf lies in the Palestinian government. A collaboration between UN, Israel and the Palestinian government to eradicate Hamas should have been put into play before it became as popular and dominant as it is now in that region.

^^^


And they're calling themselves a peaceful bunch. really, that's funny.

yeah, there are peaceful muslims out there, but they're not peaceful because of islam. they're peaceful because they're MORE than islam.

Ya another thing that irks me is the hypocrisy of it all. Many muslims invoke "brotherhood in the name of Islam" and such. But when they were defeated decades ago and the inhabitants of Gaza were left without homes. Where was that "brotherhood" where were the other "brothers of the faith" to welcome them into their lands so they may lodge and be clothed?

No where, instead they were stuck in refugee camps with harsh and terrible conditions. Israel even let them back within the borders so they may exist, work and prosper as they did before. But many lived as refugees, outcasts and the Arab nations despite all their claims of brotherhood and kinship did not extend the hospitality of lodging to these poor folk.

Hypocrites I say.

well, let's not dwell on the hypocrisies of islam anymore. they're more than anyone can find.

Israel's way of dealing with the issue may be crazy, but that doesn't make islam's right. all i see is that, because islam is weaker, hence the loser, they seem more...ugh. let's just say more pathetic, and since we humans have this feeling called sympathy, we pity them. that's all.

israel is wrong in their methods, but islam's way off on intention, methods and even resources. that's why i support israel.

well, regardless of who's right, please, end this war soon. war is not a very lovely thing to either see or go through.

Although I don't post often (And I should! Though not as big as this >>;), here are my thoughts.

In my household, we've had the occasional argument about Israel and Palestine, war, settlements, blah, blah, blah, it's really messy.

I believe that nothing will change unless the people of both lands are forced to find a common solution to their problems. The governments of Palestine and of Israel aren't pressured to find a solution fast because both believe they re in the right, and perhaps they are at times.

Palestine and the Arab World

Palestinians have the moral backing of the Arab world but these nations hesitate to go further because of many factors. One, each country has its own agenda and own problems to deal with, and unless you're Egypt, you're not going to try to touch the Palestinian problem any more than you have to because it'll draw the ire of both Israel and the US.

Refugee crises in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria have also created problems in how the rest of the Arab world can deal with Palestine. For example, Israel is perfectly willing to violate a country's airspace, bomb a refugee camp inside that country, and trot off. I can't imagine a country that would WANT that problem to deal with, no matter the sympathy it might have.

The war in Iraq and Afghanistan wasn't helpful either in creating a foundation for a peace process because it created an upwelling of tension throughout the Middle East. Additionally, the exodus of Iraq refugees into other Middle Eastern countries due to the war places a greater strain on those countries to not only feed their citizens but the millions of others who escaped or left Iraq.



No matter how welcoming a country may be, it cannot expect to uproot and house TWO MILLION PEOPLE (Population data from 1967). It's called common sense. Your argument is akin to the United States being expected to take a large portion of the population of Mexico (if/when it destablizes in a giant explosion) and to feed them, to clothe them, and to ensure that their wellbeing is equal to that of its citizens. I know Americans are very kind and generous people (since I'm one too), but we have our own problems to deal with, especially now.

Israel!

Israel's fine with the status quo because it basically has the Gaza Strip by the throat and West Bank by the arm. They are protected by the US for the most part in the global community and have every right to defend themselves.

It's really messy in Israel though, as the recent election created a bloody deadlock among who should lead the coalition government between the conservative and the moderate groups, and it would seem the conservative Likud party would serve as the leading party in Israel. That doesn't bear well for peace in Palestine, though, because the far-right ideology of Likud and its allies would prevent any sort of concessions to Hamas, Fatah, or the Palestinian people. In fact, expansion in the West Bank might start up anew and this could make it a hellstorm in the region if things went wrong. Plus, Israel still has that meddlesome, strange Iran on its radar and undoubtably will detract from the peace process.


After that lengthy introduction, here's what I think need happen.

For Palestine and the rest of the Arab World:

1) Reconcile your undying hatred of Israel for the sake of the Palestinians. Israel's pretty much here to stay, so forgive thy neighbor and move on.

2) Iran, stop messing around. Your dealings, however tenuous the evidence may be, only serve to get your country nuked and to harm Palestinians by not exactly allowing Israel to relax so that it might participate fully in a peace process. [On a side note, I appreciate your "freedom of speech" in having nuclear capablities and believe it might help your nation grow and prosper. For now though, you're just making Israel nervous, so try not to urge the annihilation of its citizens or say the Holocaust didn't happen, because that just annoys Israel]. Additionally, while you are accorded the respect befitting of a nation lasting millenia (because Iran's been a nation for 9,000 years and everyone else hasn't), don't push your luck too far.

3) Hamas, you have every right to defend your lands from the incursions of Israeli tanks and fighter jets. However, the people getting killed are your civilians and that just doesn't work well after a while. I know your mission is to obliterate Israel and that there's an Intifada going on, but your prime objective is to ensure the safety, stability, and prosperity of your people in the Gaza Strip. If Israel had really wanted to, they could have starved everyone out of there a long time ago, but they can't for obvious reasons. Still, that doesn't mean the ends justify the means, because there aren't enough of your people to outlast everyone in Israel. Your battle, however touching and admirable (to an extent) is quixotic and your only hope for the survival of the Palestinian state is to seek peace so that Palestine as a nation can become self-sufficient, independent, and have sovereignty over its issues and borders.

For Israel and everyone else:

1) International community, I can't blame you for your actions up to this point, as no intelligent nation by itself would try to fight the United States in the past and expect to win in a battle of diplomacy. Still, there's power in numbers. The UN as an organization fails epically and is bogged down by bureaucracy and a lack of funds, equipment, and most importantly, will. It has the potential to help solve this problem very nicely, but that potential won't be realized unless you all as a group will it. [Of course, you all have your own problems and agendas and the UN has no enforceability, so do as you wish. ^^]

2) The United States is a very tricky player in this game, because it obviously favors one side but has to serve as advocate for both sides. It is still the superpower, however crippled it may be by the global economic downturn, and so it has the power to force something to happen, or at least theoretically. It's understandable that the US would want to get its problems fixed in due course, but eventually it will have to attend to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which will get worse and worse as time goes on. Basically, it's the joker (And I'm getting bored of writing so much).

3) Lastly, finally, it's Israel's turn at the block. By all accounts, it has strove out and done what its objectives were to do from 1948 onward. It's acquired land, become militarily powerful, gained a sense of sovereignty, repelled attacks (and beat the shit out of its attackers) in the region, become self-sufficient and prosperous, and grown as a nation.

The only problem I can see with that forumla is that Israel took the land of Palestinians living there by force and at gunpoint for many and then proceeded to eat away at what land was left for the Palestinians in chunks, creating a regional vendetta against them. And as the modern age approached, the methods used to keep control of Palestinians and to protect Israels got more efficient and violent as well.

Israel's going to have to deal with Hamas and Fatah at one point, because there simply isn't enough land for one country to take and one to lose. Such an ionic relationship will only lead to more trouble and more fighting. Israel will have to understand that it is not the US, no matter how much it wishes to be, and it will have to concede land in order to make Palestinians happy. However, that realization will take time.

I just wish they'd stop fighting and get along, I really do, because the leaders don't suffer the consequences of their actions, ordinary people do. But that's not how the world works.

On a side note...

FOR GOD'S (Yahweh, Allah, Buddha, and all others accorded that title too) SAKE, there is no "Islam" I don't see what you're talking about. Are you insulting the Islamic world, seeing as they gave us the bulk of western math and medicine through preservation? Or are you calling a particular country out for its methods and ideas? I have no clue how you can seemingly bunch them all together as being weaker or the loser or even sharing the same thoughts.

Many Muslims (That's the right term now) are sane, rational, more (or less for sake of parity) intelligent people who are moderate in their thoughts and no weaker or predisposed at losing than you or I am. They may live in a more tumultous region of the Earth, but they've been doing that for two millenia at least so far and survived.

So we're not all hypocrites, nor are very many of us. I would like to pose this question to you, however. Say you're starving, your older son was shot by an occuping army, & your brother and his family were killed by a rocket attack. Say this keeps happening, over and over, and there's absolutely nothing you can do. Your life is for the most part worthless and you're trapped to wait and die by bullet, disease, or starvation.

People turn to desperation when there's not even hope to look to and while some may oppose what they do and how they do it, who the hell are we to judge them in their situation? Suicide bombers and fighter jet attacks are detestable, but what has happened between Israel and Palestine all these years is like a long drawn-out war and in war, nearly everything goes, sadly.

Come on both of thems can have it!
Sharing is caring.

How to put this subtle...

Israel is like the short and angry little kid in school. You know the one that always has to act tough and be fucking annoying cause he got a complex about his length? Yea, like that.

Before high school, Israel was bullied by everyone because he was fat, then his big brothers finally stepped in, beat all the bullies, and helped him get slim and fit better into school. But now he's back for revenge, and he has also taken to bully other nations that are smaller and weaker than him (just like people did with him before). So he goes around beating up people that looks at him cross-wise with a baseball bat, but since he started wearing glasses after he slimmed down, you are not allowed to punch back, cuz if you do, his big brother the US will come and beat you up.

Yea, that is quite fitting. Israel HAD a right to defend themselves, if that was what they did. Seeing how they started to pick fights and beat up all other countries around them after any threat was pretty much gone, not so much anymore. Not to mention all the killing of civilians that bring humanitarian aid and so on.

No, Israel is bullshit, and so is any country supporting them.

"Thou shalt not kill" yet, isn't isreal a world leader in weapons development?

And who wouldn't be when you have an entire region trying to kill you?

I side with Israel for reasons already mentioned in this thread.

No, they get support because they are suffering under the heel of a convenient scapegoat. The media promotes the conflict like Imperial Israel just marches into the neighboring lands and genocides the people but, when rockets bombard civilian population centers or suicide bombers blow up a bus or market place full of civilians. It's just "Those damn dirty Jews got what they deserved".

I dislike the current Israeli government for it's stubbornness to negotiate but, I respect their right to defend themselves from Palestinian suicide bombers and rockets. I also condemn the Palestinian people for their belief that use of suicide bombers is a legitimate tactic.

Palestinians whine about Israel "invading" their territory. Well, when you bomb the ever losing piss out of a people. It's pretty idiotic to think they won't retaliate.