N. Korean Artillery Fires Upon S. Korea

Note: Didn't read other posts.

But I feel that NK is being the little annoying brother version of China. China's recent ship ramming incident stirred quite a bit of ruckus and it seems North Korea wants some attention now too so they decided to bombard the SK island. That, or North Korea is just creating problems so they can train Kim's son to take on some of this responsibility. That's my wild theory.

If war starts, it's going to be Vietnam war all over again. South Korea+Team USA and friends fighting Commies.

Man, I wanted to visit Korea this year too. :(

South Korea and its allies should first exercise maximum restraint and tolerance in handling North Korea before entertaining any possibility of war. Explore every possible route for a peaceful resolution. Look for anything that can help ease off the tension.

But never give in to any North Korea demands that can be deemed as ridiculous - such as financial aid. If they give in to these things, what's North Korea to the world - a nation free to make threats and we pay them just to be pacified? It's a bottomless barrel we shouldn't be in favor to fill.

And if North Korea still wants to fire and shoot in the face of a world doing everything to pacify them, then there's no other choice.

@jmason - I agree with everything you said, but the reason people are mentioning war is because SK and its allies have already been through everything you mentioned.

SK does show great restraint - what other country could be attacked multiple times and not declare war on the country that attacked it? They also have given NK financial aid in many forms - including food to feed the poor and homeless and materials to build building that would help people that were instead used to build weapons. Lastly, NK has shown that it will shoot across its own boarders despite the the ire they will receive from the world - this is exactly what they did when they killed 2 marines and injured over a dozen others.

NK is simply one of those annoying kids who do something 'naughty', then turn around and say "I didn't do it.."
As far as I'm able to tell, the only real solution for solving that behavior in a child is strict discipline and a good beating... though perhaps it's good I don't have kids.


North Korea is currently succeeding in their trivial taunting. They are trying to show that they can get away with whatever they want and are, indeed, doing so.
We can either continue to ignore it, or take the long, dreary road to putting an end to it.
However, honestly, when that choice is made I don't think we'll play a huge part in deciding it.

The outcome of that choice, however...

Because there's more to war than just bombing the other side into oblivion.
You do realise that North Korea has the 3rd largest artillery force in the world, most of it on the 38th parallel and the majority of that is pointed at Seoul.

It's easy to say why not go to war when there's a huge body of water separating you and your aggressor. Not so when they're next door with their guns pointing at you.

Have you been following the story AT ALL? South Korea fired missiles into NORTH KOREAN waters. What did you expect to happen for NK to offer SK a friendly hand gesture? I'm condemning how NK responded in its approach, but know your facts first before you begin talking. Not to mention that no one except SK acknowledged the island as SK territory, not legally anyways.



LOL, how does this no even come close!? LEARN YOUR FUCKING HISTORY. Your western bias is overwhelming, hypocrisy right left and center. The entire thing started out when the US fucked with Afghanistan over Soviet expansion and troubles "their war on Communism" That's right two foreign nations fucking with the Arabs in their own country because of resources. After the Soviets pulled out, the US continue to fuck with Afghanistan, people didn't like this so Al-Qaeda was established. Now according to your logic this means Al-Qaeda is justified every little bit.



Are you above 35? If not you're not an adult(strictly speaking from a statistical generalization). Since i'm Asian, i know that Asian adults/parents are not the most suave when it comes to the internet, let alone facebook rofl, hell a lot of them still read newspapers. Also let me ask you, for those adults in the minority in SK, that do use the internet as a news source, how many of them go onto news network dedicated sites? What's the difference from getting your propaganda from the television than from the news networks website? None. The same propaganda and bias will be there. Also Obama has nothing to do with anything, we're talking about SK media, so keep your fucking western bias (again) to yourself.

Which rounds about my point about wtf you are talking about at the end. I ain't ever said anything about NK media. I agree that it will be full of bias and propaganda, but your view that the SK wouldn't be, is laughable at the least.

Also, DOES ANYONE FUCKING HERE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HOW POLITICS WORKS?

From what ive seen no. These stupid comments about how China wouldn't defend NK is MAJOR LOLS. China uses NK as a buffer zone to keep out western influence from its country. Its the only reason why China supports NK, not to mention they give leverage to China in negotiations. Oh have i mentioned that NK is on the border of China? Because you know, that's kinda important.

Jesus fucking Christ people, you really think that China would allow the USA/SK to occupy a bordering territory?

GameON, your opinions are grossly inaccurate when quoting facts. Show me where it says SK was the initial aggressor, show me where the US and Russia screwed with Afghanistan at the same time (in fact, the US gave weapons and supplies to Afghans to fight off Soviet invaders - the made a whole movie on it called "Charlie Wilson's War which stared Tom Hanks), show me where it says that most people get their news from one source, and tell me how not being over 35 doesn't make you an adult.

But you know what, the world isn't according you. Here is how:

Elderly and the internet:
http://www.simplyzesty.com/social-media/older-people-online/

When You are considered an adult:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_of_age

People get news from multiple sources:
http://www.pewinternet.org/Reports/2010/Online-News.aspx

Free media in South Korea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_South_Korea
Here is a quote that sums it up nicely:


Western Media Watchdog Groups (Prevent and report Media Bias):
http://www.suite101.com/content/media-watchdog-groups-a102727

Russians invade Afghanistan:
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/russia_invasion_afghanistan.htm

Short story - Afghanistan was in civil war, one side Muslim, one side pro Communism. Russians want to help their new commie allies.

Experts say China's control over N. Korea is Overrated:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/24/china.north.south.korea/index.html?iref=allsearch
More experts say it is overrated; North Korea worried about China influence:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/26/china.north.korea.ties/index.html?iref=allsearch

World Military Strength:
http://www.globalfirepower.com/ (Oh whats that? South Korea is 12th and N. Korea is 20th? Well at least N. Korea has its Ally China to help ou- oh no! China is only number 2 while USA is ranked number 1. Too bad South Korea has better allies too!)

I don't care what you have to say if it makes at least some sense or you can back it up with something - I'll listen to it. However, if you are just making up nonsense and saying that the world is crazy and you're the only sane one in it, I'll have to start assuming you're an idiot.

Is there an article that describes this possibility? Everything else I've read indicates that exercises were done on South Korean waters, and that missiles were fired West, away from Korean peninsula.




On that note, have you ever heard of 1953 Korean Armistice?



Five islands, including the one bombed, was specified as being South Korean territory by the agreement.

So it is Southern territory. And it was for last 57 years.


Source



On side note, my whole worry comes precise from the fact that NK is backed by China.

Let's face it, if it wasn't, they bomb the shit out of NK right now.

But a lot of politics is determined by people, and people, well, have a tendency to do really stupid stuff.

It might be entirely plausible that they will wait around until NK will get shit beaten out of them before China will step in and stop it. They did that in the very first war.

Or they might not, and just nuke the hell out of world.

Or there will be a proxy war, and Korean Peninsula will be in a state of shit for next 50 years, while Chinese and Americans sit back and watch their armaments industries rack up profits.

If everyone was so sure the China would back them up, there wouldn't be so much scaring.

The scare is precisely because no-one knows in which way it will come down to.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/27/south-korea-military-drills



On that note, have you ever heard of 1953 Korean Armistice?



Lol no. "under the military control of the Commander-in-Chief, United Nations Command."

Which means its not South Korean property but UN. And the UN don't have any real authority over countries anyways, so this doesn't really mean anything at all. . Point and case when the UN tried stopping the US's "war on terror" but the US did it anyways. NK has already stated it does not recognize and comply with this border agreement, so really it isn't even the UN's territory and anything but SK territory. Legally that is.

I've read it, and it doesn't state explicitly that anything was fired and fell into North-controlled waters. Unless, something is not showing up on the page.

I'm not saying that South haven't been responsible at all for the shelling, but the article doesn't say explicitly that anything was fired at North Korea.



Yes, it can be argued from that point.

But let's not forget that until 90's Norther Korea had agreed to that. Only did in the recent last 10 years did they go lolNo.

Just because one side arbitrary decides that "this agreement is bullshit, we will ignore it", doesn't always mean that the treaty no longer exists. Japanese like claiming that Kuril Islands are theirs, but it is a Russian territory for example.

And let's be honest, UN = United States in this case (with a bit of British and whatnot units on the side). Since they're not on that island, I'm willing to assume that jurisdiction of those islands might have been passed on to South Korea.

Even if it's not Southern territory, it's not Norther either. So you can't say that they were "firing onto their own ground". Do you seriously believe if that if that was a case there would be a problem?

Rather, it would be South having it's ass on the line for building bases and letting people live in "not their" land.

Its in the first line. And that peninsula they conducted those military exerscises are viewed by North Korea as their territory.




The problem you see is that North Korea view that area as their territory. SK knowing this still choose to conduct military exercises in it. Seriously what a stupid move on SK's part. Maybe even if its your territory, if NK don't agree with that and you still conduct military exercises in it? They were just asking for trouble, at this point i think SK purposely did it do stir up tension for a regime against NK. It all seems just too conveniently timed with the transition of power from Kim Jong Il to his son happening atm.

This doesn't mean that south korea fired at North Korea or started anything with them. They dropped bombs and fired artillery but they weren't directing any of it towards the north. It was just an exercise - pretend war. And where else is better to run a fake scenario for a possible war then where it is likely to happen?

They were in their own territory - the only ones in the entire world who dispute that is the North Koreans themselves.

The most important thing to notice about that article though is that it is from an incident that happened back in May. It isn't about what happened this month. Notice the date at the top, and how the article doesn't even mention artillery fire from North Korea or the death of two soldiers and two civilians. It is old news.

Sigh, i don't even know why i try with you.

Here.

http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm

Look at those statistics, around 825 million people situated in Asia use the internet. A lot? Considering Asia's population of just under 4 billion that is only 20 odd percent. And I suspect that the people that use the internet for news use is lower than that. And no fucking shit people get news from multiple sources, i'm arguing about how television is the main medium for people to do so.

And do you even read my posts at all? Seriously, because you keep bringing up things that in no way relate to anything i'm saying. I said from a statistical generalization of population, the majority of adults/people reside in the 35 + bracket. Want proof? Here:

http://www.worldstat.org/statistics/demography.htm

Oh what's that SK median age is 35.2? And the elderly? How does that even relate, the elderly and the adult bracket are two different correlations of statistical figure.

And I never said they fucked with Afghanistan at the same time, (i seriously am doubting your literature skills right now) and the US supplying Afghan with military support? Yeah that is considered fucking with another country. See the US have a stupid idealism that they are the center of the world and have to fix everything and that everyone is their business and their way is all ways the just and righteous. (Vietnam, Israel). See by funding the Afghans to fight Russia and other Arab countries later on, they were basically just using a puppet to do their motives. (oh surprise! Another puppet ploy but the US!)

In terms of South Korean free media? LOL don't make me laugh. Do even have the slightest clue about what propaganda is and how it works? I very much doubt you do.



[/quote]

Again, stop putting words in my mouth because i never said anything like that. Not to mention how is military ranking relevant to any of the points AT ALL that i've made? Clearly this is just another ploy to show off your stupid western bias!

But i'll play along for this one and point out the flaws in your argument again. POLITICS HOW DOES IT WORK HURR DURR is the vibe i'm getting from you right now. Firstly did you know China has a compulsory military service that all men at the age of 18 must attend? This basically means that over 500 million civilians could be certified soldiers that have been trained. (That's over the entire population of the US!). And SK's allies? Yeah look it up, SK only has the US as an ally. The US however has many other nations as allies, basically meaning that if the US go into war against country, their allies will too. But only if the US do.So yeah bl SK if the US don't support you in a war against NK you're fucked.

Now because of China, the US won't go into war against NK, NOT BECAUSE OF MILITARY STRENGTH HURR DURR, but because of economy. A war against China means the US cut off their main supply of imports, meaning they wouldn't be able to fund a war because China is the US's biggest import of weapons.



Seriously? Did you even read the post above you? Here i'll show you again.



Oh and "old news" hahaha. DERP POLITICS HOW DOES IT WORK? It is from this year, you think it takes a mere few days for a country to respond and react to something like that? OH THEY FIRED INTO OUR TERRITORY! LETS FIRE BACK STRAIGHT AWAY WITHOUT CONSULTING NEGOTIATIONS! That shit takes months to process unless buzzed down by a national leader. The article was just to validate my point of SK firing into NK disputed territory /facepalm x 1000

Basically, stfu neko-chan cos you don't know shit and you suck at debating for retorting to ignoring my points and putting words in my mouth. Oh and you can't read.

Its impossible that China will join in North Korea's side since China is keeping close ties with the US and European countries than a tiny "hermit" state. If you wanna ask why? Try searching google or yahoo for the current news between the 2 Koreas, and all you can find is "China silently cursing at the North Koreans."

Point is China WILL DEFINITELY ALLY ITSELF WITH THE US and S.KOREA if you're going to ask what will be China's move if the war starts.....CHINA will cut supplies on North Korea and leave the North being eaten alive by a combined coalition force.

In here the Philippines has an active defense pact with South Korea, but our government will not send any contingent unlike the past. Instead our nation will send Medical Teams to help with the wounded and helping civilians.

China's already been pressuring N.Korea to stop it's bullcrap, so if it really does come to war, then yes, i agree that they most likely will support US/S.Korea/Japan.

[size=10]Fuck, just outta curiosity, is Singapore allied with S.Korea? I'm doing my National Service soon, and i'm afraid that if war does start, I'm gonna get sent there. [/h]

World War 3? hell that's not gonna happen.

Come on, it's like, u believe that S.Korea will make the first strike? Chances are EXTREMELY LOW. And if N.Koreo strike first, trust me, S.Korea is gonna be wiped out(if not,heavily damaged). Americans? they gonna play safe by having all those bullshit talks on summit for months before 'leading' the coalition to invade North.(and with all talks there are chances no invasion will be done at all.)

If South is wiped out, do u think america will retaliate? with no benefit? Vietnam war should serve a lesson to them on country with war capability.(thats if,north have warhead as claimed by them)

Heres a quote from Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker: Japan have no war capability,but is under the Nuclear Umbrella from America. But if Japan is attacked, do u think America will retaliate?

WW3 is not gonna happen no, neither China nor the US is willing to go to war because of this, they wouldn't be able to afford it even if they wanted. Or... China might, seeing how self-sufficient they are(compared to others), but the US is to dependable on China to go to war with them.

But seeing more attacks from both sides(N/S Korea), with lame-ass excuses to back it up? I'm sure of it.

Don't really have much to say since I'm ill-informed on the issue save one thing: I'd rather not have it happen. I have friends in SK.

Singapore is allied with S.Korea and its highly likely they will deploy forces if war does break.

So, reading these posts and some news stores, does N. Korea even HAVE allies at this point?
It seems Ill is asking for attention to me.
If it does go to war, it could be a quick one (or it could be Vietnam all over again >_>)

Don't really want anything to escalate.