The True God

True, that's just an opinion. And that's why we try to determine which one is the true one.



I dunno what's so religious about it. Care to explain? Btw, if you have the time, do some experiments or better, read some scientific proof. I recommend the one by J. Perrin. That may help you understand what I mean by proof and verification.



I think what we know too little about nature to make this assumption...or even to assume that the universe is orderly at all. Btw using god to explain the order of the universe, whatever the order might be, won't work, since something capable of maintaining the complex "order" of the universe must be more complex than the universe itself, which in turn must be maintained by an even higher complexity ad infinitum.



I'm in no way implying I'm more intelligent than them, although I'd like to be. What I'm trying to say is that being humans we're all prone to mistakes and god, being the strongest meme of all, is particularly capable of infesting itself to a thinking mind. It does offer a very convenient escape when you're in a deadlock after all.



Okay. As of now I can't and it makes perfect sense for you not to believe in the existence of intelligent life outside of earth. But note that you didn't prove the existence of you "god" either.



I'm under the impression that I'm being polite, so if you take offense to any of my words, sorry. I don't mean for it to be taken as an insult.

edit: lol'd at Rbz's post.

Just to make a quick note of this, wouldn't that also apply to, basically everything else? For as far as we know, in that line of thinking there is no point at which something requires to be maintained by something. Basically that theory would be a paradox.

Now i'll just go back to my lurker corner, muahahaha.

What I'm trying to say that, while the concept of "order needs to be maintained by a higher order" can be applied to simple and specific things around us, we are not justified in applying the concept to the universe as a whole.

I seem to recall a part of the bible where somebody said that as christians, it is their job to worship the creator of the earth. Jesus laughed at him and called him a simplistic fool for believing that the creator of the earth and his father were the same god. See, even christianity has multiple gods. I just felt like throwing that out there.

A few things that are proven about humans:
1) We like to believe our theories are right. The thing that religion does is explain things that can't be explained by the will of god. However, since the medieval ages, the things that have to be explained with a higher existence manipulating them have shrunk; considerably. Also, religion does the exact opposite of proving their theory of god. Let's take a little psychological experiment into account. If a person is shown the numbers 22,24,26 and is asked what the next number is, he will say 28. If he is than asked what rule is applied and says +2 you can ask him to continue the chain. In the end people will try to find several rules like X*2 etc, however they will in most cases end up NOT trying to come up with a way simpler rule - the next number just has to be higher than the previous one, meaning 26,3 would be okay as would be 27 etc.
What is my point? Religion is basically telling us not to try to break the chain of +2, X*2, (X+2)/2 etc. and is trying to keep us in a train of thought that way, thus managing to have people stay on their path.

To be honest, I think that the bible is more like a tale of the brothers Grimm (for those who don't know them, look them up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_Grimm). The simple moral being: Don't do bad stuff, otherwise the big someone in heaven will punish you... One of the best ways to frighten children away from doing things is by scaring them enough and let's face it, an almighty identity sitting at a place they can't reach, looking down on them and punishing them if they do wrong is the best way to influence the consciousness of superstitious children through almost all time periods. The best thing about it is, that the church is making TONS of money with that book, so why try to convince people of the fact, that the things that are written in there are non - existant? There is close to NO better way to make money than to manipulate the faith of people into something.
For that note, I believe in the fact that someone or something made the big bang and the creation of matter in the universe possible, however I wouldn't call that religion, it is something I cannot prove, so I keep it to myself in most cases, unless asked.
And before anyone is going to tell me now, that it is the same thing with religion, there is a large difference. People in delirium writing things they see in hallucinations, modern scientifically knowledge about optical illusions (walking on water? please....), rumors / events blown out of proportion etc, the reasons and scientific explanations one can find for the stories in the bible / Koran / other similar books are aplenty.

I am likening the idea of the atom to the idea of God. You cannot see it, but it is more than likely that it exists if you question the problem far enough.





So you are clinging to science, and then saying that science doesn't know anything about nature?...Interesting...Also, the bit about maintaining order is untrue. A human can create virtual worlds and maintain and manipulate them. He needs no one above him (Not to say there is no one above him). A human can also maintain a pet dog, can it not?


So you are agreeing that through their logic their thinking would lead to a God whether the thinking was to further self or to further that God. The point is, they knew it was at least plausible, or else they would not have tried to contend for the existence of a God.


Just as you cannot disprove God's existence, no one can prove the existence of God to someone else. It is a personal realization, and for me required more than ten years where I questioned the existence of a God.. Whether one believes in God or not depends on the individual.



Don't sweat it man- You're perfectly fine. RBZ is...Odd (Major troll). While you are still credible, and if you could disprove God, I might listen...If RBZ found a "way" to..He has already lost all of his credibility so it wouldn't matter...However, you have to admit that in online arguments people are a LOT more stubborn and idiotic than face-to-face dialects. Personally I try to imagine I was talking in person so that I might consider their thoughts as well rather than just dismissing it as text. If I thought you were a bad person I wouldn't look forward to getting on later and debating you, silly :].

Edit: Going off again- Meeh College HW is so boring >.<...

I... highly doubt thats in the bible. To say the least.

[size=10] man, it feels good to finally venture out of ib again xD[/h]

Yes! Exactly!

I believe in the force, but I did believe in a one true God and this was my theory. In the beggining God created us but after 100 years or so he got tired of dealing with our shit so he created all of the other gods to do his work for him so he can sit around playing Nintendo and drinking Jack Daniels all day (God is not bound by the laws of time). He also had the bible made the way it was because he created evolution and if the Bible was written like Charles Darwins' book then no one would read it so he had to make up a super cool adventurous work of fiction to get the people interested in him.

@Adder: Ugh, even after all this you still fail to grasp my point. Perhaps I'm not good enough to convey the message clearly, or maybe you're just unable to liberate yourself from the chains of god. I don't know, and I'm not interested in making assumptions.

Just one thing to point out though. The self-realization thing that you said before, to me, and I think to almost every atheists out there, it sounds no different from self-hallucination.

I believe in aliens, even though i was raised with the Christian faith lately i'm just finding it a whole lot easier to believe in aliens than to believe in jesus and God as one. Of course ask me to back up my claims and the only thing i can really say is that if God exists why cant aliens?

This is very....Disappointing. I was expecting a well-prepared response, not an easy way out.

Oh, and of course. Just because I believe in a God I couldn't possibly grasp your point because that obviously makes me so much less intelligent. This surely makes me a crazy self-deluding lunatic rather than a person of sound mind who has simply come to a different conclusion than yourself. Get over yourself, man. Accept that there is a possibility that you are wrong as I have accepted it.

Hm? A troll? Simply because I disagreed with you in a not so pleasant manner? I did provide a valid logical retort which you dismissed as "lacking credibility" because... why? Because I curse? Because I'm being mean to you? Grow the fuck up.


At least we can verify that the atom exists. You should try applying your logic to something that you don't believe in. Maybe then you'll understand why your arguments are laughable.

The problem of pixies. You cannot see them, but it is more likely that it exists if you question the problem far enough.
(Hint: No it isn't)


Obvious strawman is obvious.
That's not what he said, read his post again.

The rest is not even worth mentioning.


Maybe if he wasn't trying to dance around your point with fallacious reasoning and bullshit assumptions, you probably wouldn't be having this problem. Like I said, full of shit, M I RITE?

Having trouble finding the passage I was talking about, but I did find this and it was very interesting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6274502/God-is-not-the-Creator-claims-academic.html

Im a Christian and I do belive that there is a powerful force in this universe that people call "God".Not so long ago I was wondering if there really is a True God or we are just created by no one.But a theory that we exist because of mother nature isnt really convincing for me.Do not forget that some people actually seen HIM\HER (because we dont even know who it is) and recive Signs from God.We all know that God have many worshippers known as "Mohairs" or put it simple old hags :-)
When I was a kid I walked to the church every Sunday and my faith was very strong, but I soppose each of you had the same at my age.Now when I grew up and I dont go to church anymore my faith has weaken.Im not even praying anymore accept on religion lesson.So its all depend on your "belive or not?".And that is probably why people call it "Leap of Faith".

I was given the choice of being religious or not. (I'm thankful for that.) Instead of being taught from an early age about (or not) the Bible. While I'm not religious in the slightest, I find nothing wrong with it. In fact I consider a lot of the (for lack of better wording) 'side effects' to be good. Most religious folk are very polite and nice to each other as they are taught. Helping neighbors in need and all that. And I think that's great. Too many people on this planet are assholes for no reason as it is.

But, that's where I draw my line. I've honestly tried to believe in a god, I've read parts of the Bible (I'd be lying if I said all of it.) And I made my own rational decision that I think it's all a bunch of hooey. I find it hard to believe that everything there is was done by one being, be he so called divine or not.

So basically religion is fine and all, but I think church should be kept separate from other things (especially politics, you want to voice your opinion, pay taxes and earn your say.) Anyway, that's my two cents.

Alot of religious people are assholes too. I don't think one person's assholeness is affected by being religious or not.

Good point. Didn't think that part through I guess. Now that I think about it, I know a lot of religious people who are total dicks. Maybe even more so. But the second point stands.

Yeah, they playing the fearful and good people who helps neighbours, walking to the temple, praying, taking the collection.But when other people really need help then they turn back on them...

Perhaps my view is skewed from personal experience. I really think my dad personifies a good Christian, but then again, he was a nice guy from the get-go. So that may have nothing to do with it.