The True God

No actually. And I'm going off of a survey here of about 50 people. When asked, "If Murder was legal, would you do it?" About 40 of them answered, "Yeah, probably." We GOT our laws from religious moral systems, which, I may give you, could have quite easily been built by a couple guys going, "Look, these guys are gonna do idiotic things until we tell them some higher power is telling them not to..." But it was still rooted in religion. Whether or not religion is NECESSARY to gain this knowledge? Well, no, basic morals and all that, but are a lot of people ignorant of their own morals, guided mainly by consequence? There's another thread basically proving that people barely care about Morals anymore.

I believe it was Thomas Hobbes that stated we are all inherently evil and selfish.

I'm not going to read the entire thread, because I'm tired. So, I'm just going to reply to what the OP said in the beginning.

I guess most would consider me an atheist. I do not believe in God. I believe the Bible is a ridiculous piece of literature. If God exists, congratulations! That's awesome for you, and me, and the rest of the world. If not, oh well. I don't really care either way.

Sometimes God and I have this kind of mutually civil kind of relationship. I don't talk to God, God doesn't talk to me. But if something good happens to make my life a little easier, I'll give a quick thanks. Just in case, God is actually there.

Most of the time, I really think that God was created by people, for people, so that when bad shit happens, they have some hope to look forward to. Which isn't bad! I commend those people for being able to have blind faith. Being able to talk to some God that they believe has the power to make things better, or would never give them more than they can handle, can truly make a person feel better. Sadly, it does not do that for me. Also, God was created as a way for people back then to explain shit that can now be explained through science.

Yes, I am a math/science girl. Too bad my boyfriend is really, really christian/catholic/whatever.

About that survey; Source or GTFO.

Nope we got our morals from evolution. Even animals display some set of guild lines that their group must follow.

Religion was never the cause to start this.

Really? I can prove that our current base laws have roots in religious morals, can you prove that we just thoought of them just because?

And that survey was personally conducted around Campus, no professional source I'll admit, but regardless when 50 regular people are asked, "If murder were legal, would you do it?" And 80 peercent of them said yes, that speaks volumes.

I am an interesting case. I believe in science but I am also open to the ideas of religion. It certainly possible that a God of some kind exists. The truth is I don't know. God could exist or he might not. The idea of God could be misguided. You can't say anything for sure. Whether he exists or not really only matters when you are dead if he exists you would go to some sort of afterlife and if not you would just rot in the ground or have ashes just lie around. It doesn't matter when you're alive because what will God do for you. When you see an ant on the ground do you help it? No you don't. Compared to God we are simply insects why he bother with our problems when he probably has a huge amount of his own? Personally I hope God exists, the idea of an eternal paradise after death certainly sounds nice. But I wouldn't count him to solve your or the worlds problems. Nor would I kill anyone or groups of people or start wars over the idea and I also wouldn't insult or discriminate against someone just because of what they believe.

Here is Richard Dawkins explaining how morality came about.

Ok, so we have Richard Dawkins stating, "I think all people are basically good." and we have Thomas Hobbes stating, "All people are inherently evil." That's not proof, that's some smart guy going, "Here's my hypothesis." They used chimps as an example in that video, well I can use damn near any animal as my example as well that beings can be inherently selfish and evil. Early people knocked women over the head and dragged them back to their caves to have their way with, is that moral? I don't think so. Also religion's been around longer than people seem to understand. Just because the main subject isn't God doesn't mean it's not religion...people worshipped the earth around them before worshipping ANY gods.

I don't believe in a God, but in a higher being that either watches us or influences us somehow. I can't believe in something I can't see or things that were "written" from old times. But I do know there is always some being higher than our own.

I actually am curious about this. Did your conducted survey just plainly stated if murdur was legal would you do it? Or did you state other conditions. Because I find it really hard to believe the results, but Ill assume it is real, and I really have to quistion their seriousness or there is more to meets the eye.

And I believe this has nothing to do with religion, its just basic human culture or living. Lets say a scenario, If somehow the society now legalise murder as you stated, anyone can kill anyone they wishes. Do you know what will happen? People will split into two groups, the one that wants to protect their family and friends, another consist of singles-useless people who have no attachment to their lives, they seek people to kill for fun, pleasure, and money. Since some people treasure their family and friends, obviously the other happy-killing-group will soon turn into a minority, you will be finding people who protects kill the happy-killing-group for the purpose so that their family and children can be safe. After that, happy-killing-group will then realise that they dont wanna die and join the family group. Family group killes the idiot who legalise murder and illegalise it. This will just repeat itself as long as some guy legalise murdur.

Thousands of years ago, killing isnt such a big deal and this scenario may be present in the past, now, it is, because the majority will not tolerate murdering of their loved ones, just because Humans are mammals and mammal's instinct is to protect their family, and I believe this sense has not yet degenerate, to achieve this goal they would gather around together to streangthen their power, just like how wild mammals protect their young from reptiles and predators, human intelligence enhanced this system too by creating the basic laws, which is in favor of the majority, thats why i find it nothing to do with religions or gods or whatever. Basicly, its the evolution of human culture.

No other way can this be achieved, not by god, not by religion, its human's natural mammal instinct, which is the source of religion rules, morals and laws.

I hope I did not misunderstood your point tho

Can you at least answer the following questions about that survey?

1. How many people were asked if they would kill.
2. Where were these people questioned?
3. Do these people come from various sects of society ( preps, goths, jocks, nerds, etc...)?
4. Exactly how was the question stated?
5. What group did the polling?

Answer those questions and I might be more inclined to believe this study was real.

Do you seriously even know what you're talking about?

He did use evidence in his later videos. Animals work together because they know they benefit from it. Also there is no such thing as good an evil that is just a concept humans have come up with.

Animals display some of the same behaviors that humans take as morality. If religion were the cause of morality then why do animals work together?

Why do some large fish let smaller fish go inside their mouths and clean it out without eating them?
Why do birds help pick off bugs from other birds?
Why does a mother take care it's young?

If religion was what gave morality why are any of these characteristics shown in animals who do not have the capacity for things like religion?

Why is it that atheists are the least ratio in prisons compared to those of religion? Why are the majority atheist countries have less crime?

It is simple to see that religion is not the source of where morality came from. And if you look through evolution you can see how it is incorporated into different species. Humans once belonged to a common ancestor of the great apes. And our common ancestors display very similar behavior to humans.


That poll you used is nonsense. Asking a question like that will never get results. The only way to know for sure is to actually see if they will kill someone. Words alone do not prove anything in that case. The people they are asking have probably never killed another human in their life or seen anyone kill a human. They should ask this question to people in the military instead and see the outcome.

I Believe that there is an almighty GOD somewere watching everything we do . And i also believe that Jesus came to earth to die for our sins . I dont know but i feel kinda bad sometimes afther i watch hentai or afther i smoke marijuana , or afther i snort coke , or afther i fuck some random girl in the bathroom of a club woa TMI Knowing that an almighty GOD some were is watching everything i do .
Unlike Andrew Ryan from ' BIOSHOCK " that guy was nutz . great guy , to bad you have to kill him . Isnt 'BIOSHOCK" an amazing game.?

Don't worry about watching hentai, because if what you say is true then god is the most perverted one.

Holy shit I've got a lot of people...alright, one by one. Yes, the question I asked was quite simply, "If Murder were legal, would you do it?" And my point is that people didn't NATURALLY as a culture agree that murder was wrong, religion stated that there's a consequence to murder, and that made people go, "Well then we probably shouldn't do it." THAT was my point. Thousands of years ago, religion wasn't as pertinant, in fact, it was a lot more violent. The Old Testament God? Killed everyone for doing gay shit. The new testament god? SO much nicer. I am willing to believe human evolution played a part in this, but it took a change in religion to make people REALLY accept it as a culture.



K.

1. How many people were asked if they would kill. 50.
2. Where were these people questioned?The school library, a nice, calm setting.
3. Do these people come from various sects of society ( preps, goths, jocks, nerds, etc...)?yes, I asked people in the computer lab downloading advanced technology and working on blueprints for stuff, people who just came from th weight room, and some regular students reading books for fun.
4. Exactly how was the question stated? Exactly as I said, "If Murder were legal, would you do it?"
5. What group did the polling? Just me...as to WHY I did this survey, which is probaby a bigger question, it started with my brother, who I came across asking his friends the same question. I was surprised at how many of them answered 'yes'. So I decided to see if my college campus, supposedly completely intelligent people working to become the future of Pennsylvania, would say the same...and about 80% of the people I asked were indeed the same.

I will say this, the regular people, as I labeled them, were the majority of the 20% that said they would not. About 5 of the 15 I asked.



Well then you shouldn't have just shwon the first one where he stated a pure hypothesis with no real proof or evidence other than "See? Monkeys know what they're doing and they're us like...millions of years ago." And I am WELL AWARE Good and Evil are things we made up, but that's not my point you king of douchebaggery. Murder, in the very least, is extremely inconvenient, and as early humans, we really didn't CARE about things like that. Religion helped us LEARN to care about things like that.



Why do they eat other fish that haven't done anything to them?



I dunno, why do they also attack the fuck out of eachother?



Purely biological, and even then take a look at post pardom depression moms that DREAM of killing their kids...And of course that mexican lady that actually DROWNED hers...



Yes, they CAN cooperate, but they're still savage as shit, why? Because they are purely self serving..."It helps me to let them help me and help them in return...so whatever. If you're NOT out to help me, well then fuck you, GET IN MAH BELLEH!"



Because Athiests also are the leading people who kill themselves? Cut themselves? That are Emo? I'm not saying ALL Athiests are like that, but statistics say theat they are the majority of these groups.



Not really. We don't sit around eating leaves and killing people who come near us just because we don't know them. We also are able to control our anger much better, and resort to violence much less than they do. Don't TRY to tell me apes aren't violent, because they are. It takes very little to piss an ape off. So yeah obviously if it WERE True, it's NOT easy to see that religion is not the source of morality...if anything, it's extremely difficult to see. Of course you have to be nonbias about it in order to see it. Previously I have seen that you dislike religion, so the idea that religion provided anything positive makes you skeptical, I know.




Really? What reason do these people have to lie in a simple survey? The question was nonbiased, simple, and provided a majority of affirmative answers. It was quite perfect to serve in this argument. 80% of the people I asked really would kill someone if it were completely legal. I tghink that speaks volumes.

Ok first of all I like to point out that all morality whether human or not came from the concept of individual benefit. When humans started to settle into larger communities almost 10,000 years ago they made these laws because they new what it took to create a stable community. They knew killing each other would be bad because they themselves would be at risk of getting killed. They knew that stealing was bad because if they go off to steal someone's stuff then their stuff can be stolen. Basically humans have something called empathy which gives them the abilities to project themselves onto someone else and imagine being in their situation. Most humans have this.

The people who are psycho path killers have been shown to have brain related problems which have been pinpointed. There are also genetics that act as a trigger for violent behavior. So the behavior of killing just for the hell of it is not normal. It is a biological problem.

If I were to explain why we have these morals in a evolutionary way it would be to say that in nature the I scratch your back and you scratch mine routine was the most successful approach to survival within groups of animals. Our ancestors understood this million's of years ago and we just built upon it as time went by to accommodate the new changes such as population and settlement.

If religion was the cause of morality then why do we not stone our disobedient children?

Why don't we sell our daughters into slavery?

Why are there no more slaves?

Why don't we kill people who work on the sabbath?

Why don't we kill gays?

I could go on and on.

The reason is because we had morals before religion and people just used religion to hijack power for themselves. If you cannot follow all the morals of that religion that means you do not get your morals at all from religion you are nit picking from an already preconceived idea of what is right and wrong. You live in a society which has changed it's rules in order to accommodate for the changes in technology and social structure.

Morality changes throughout time because of the need to keep up with the changes within ones community. It has nothing to do with religion. Religion was just a tool used to control people who could already control themselves.

What you seem to forget is that humans are animals we all evolved from single cell organisms. We all have certain behaviors and biological similarities due to evolution through natural selection finding what suits us best for our environment.

If humans were as chaotic as you think then we would have wiped ourselves out long ago.

Just like a group of piranhas will eat anything other than their species humans also have certain behaviors which tell us not to harm each other.




The poll you were talking about is null. Those people they questioned have never killed a person before. They do not know what it feels like to kill a person or what it feels like to see them causing pain to another human. They are asking people a question that they can't accurately answer. It's not that they are lying, it's more like that they do not really know. They have never gone through the experience.

It would make more sense to ask people who actually have killed other people before. Like people from the military. Ask the ones who accidentally killed civilians because of false information. Ask them if they would want to kill civilians again and ask them if they would do it for fun.

This pool is also null because you are taking a small group of people and trying to project a stereotype to all other people.

The poll was also a vague question. Because under the right conditions killing might be your only way to survive or to save someone else. The question "would you kill" is too vague and can be made to fit an infinite amount of situations.

I would never kill a person just for the hell of it. The only time I would ever kill someone was to save my life or the life of a loved one. So I guess I don't fit your stereotype. I am an atheist and I don't use religion to find my morals. I will even say I don;t have a moral standard. I don't believe in setting objectives for morals because life is not so black and white. I would say that I have a different moral rule for each individual situation.

Also atheists are not the leading people to kill themselves? There is a much higher ratio of religious people killing themselves. If religion was such help with morals then why is it the leading cause of death and corruption? Why are the most religious countries having the most problems with killing? People will kill/save others regardless of religion. And religion does not have a good track record throughout history anyway.


The way you bring about morals and a healthy community is through education. Education is the key.

The dark ages happened after the fall of Rome. Have any idea to one of the causes?
Education practically came to a halt. You know why Rome was so successful?

Religion?

No

It was because of education.

Could you please provide your evidence for these claims? I would be very interested in seeing it.



I would also be very interested in seeing the polls for these claims, so I shall ask you to please post them as well.

I hope I have not come off as aggressive or judgmental in this post, I did not intend for that.


Edit: Also, I would be appreciative if any more debating would make use of spoiler tags. As it is now the pages are being made much longer than is necessary without them.

Looks like what I wanted to say was said much more clearly on Ironytaken, Ill be just reading.

EDIT: No prob~

Fixed.
...I got tired of separating the posts....


Also added a little more to my post.

Edit: added even more.......I can't help with coming up with ideas.

Edit 2: done editing to old post.

No no no, that's not morality, that's "You help me, I no kill you" mentality.



Because stoning takes too much work, instead we just beat the ever loving hell out of them with belts.



People are still doing that around the world...it's not that uncommon actually...and hell, ROYAL people did that al lthe time in prearranged marriages. Still do.



Lol, where in all basic religious ideas does it say, "Thou shalt own slaves."? Or even "Thou shalt sell thine own daughters." or perhaps, "Stone deterrents." It was Jesus himself that said "He who is without sin may casteth the first stone."



The sabbath is a PARTICULAR religion's SUGGESTION that people should take Sundays off, because God did. Just pbecause people went nuts and too ka suggestion as a direct order from God himself, and began killing people 200 or so years ago, doesn't mean it's a gewnrally religious thing.



Because We do quite enough in shunning them, calling them abominations, and telling them how wrong they are in their sexual preferences. Also again, far as I know, there's ONE particular religion that explicityl stated, "Thou shalt not lay with a man as thou lays with a woman, for that is detestable." And even then...DETESTABLE doesn't mean, EVIL, it means, "Dude, that's gross, don't do that shit." Also, if you remember, the story of Soddom and Gommorrah had gay people not just sleeping with eachother, but TRYING to rape ANGELS...that's why they got their asses owned, for being gay RAPISTS.



As can I.



So you're saying that looking at some of the morals from a religion and going, "Oh those make sense." is getting your morals from religion AS LONG AS you agree with EVERYTHING that particular religion says...I'm not even gonna go into how retarded that is.



Control themselves right into killing people whom they deemed useless or just didn't like. Also, morals only changed throughout time as much as religion has, if you would take notice.







No, because the SMART asshole humans know how to control the chaotic dumbass evil humans, which is the majority.



If piranha are really hungry, they'll eat eachother, as will snakes...lions...most carnivores actually. We do too, cannibalism isn't a myth.




Lol, it proves that if people didn't think there were any consequences to killing, they would. What, I need to ask someone who has killed if they would like murder to be legal so they can do it again? Oh yeah THAT wouldn't be a biased study. It's not null, it's just proof that I'm right that you're trying to say is wrong using a bullshit argument that only people who have killed know if they'll kill or not. Which, I repeat, is bullshit.



Already said this is a bullshit argument...asking someone who already has if they would. You kidding me? Besides, they joined the military, and killed, doesn't that ALREADY Answer the question?



So by that logic, all surveys everyhwere are null. Lol.



Yay for you, you're not alone, but you're not in the majority. Besides, you grew up in a society that looked at laws and stated, "Disobey these and your life will suck." You've never lived in a non religious, nor non lawful society, and probably can't imagine it either, which is possibly part of the reason why you can't imagine killing someone.



It's not. People like to USE religion as a cover for corruption, "I'm not corrupt, look how much I go to church." Yeah right. Also no, athiests kill themselves more. As far as people who kill eachother in religious countries? That could possibly have to do with the fact that really religious countries FORCE religion on their people,m and as anyone who's gone to Catholic School can tell you, that'll make you pissed off at religion and its teachings.

Look I can sit here debunking your arguments all night, the point is Religion is a good thing, and has done both good and bad things. Good in that it is the fondation of societal laws, and bad as in...well...the Spanish Inquisition. But I maintain that's not religion's fault, that's some crazy fanatic leader that convinced a bunch of other fanatics to misunderstand religion and its teachings to the point where torture is ok. Which no religion ever taught.

Also, my source for religion and morals.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-morality/

Yay Stanford.

Edit: Umm. The whole "Athiests kill themselves more" statistic I heard was nine years ago. So I can't find it now...because when I tried I only found a shitload of religious and anti religious people bashing eachother. So I'm gonna retract that to being personal experience telling me it to be so. Of course if I have to retract this, then Irony here has to take back religious people kill themselves more and all that crap until he posts a source.