The True God
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Adder wrote...
Except that esse is "To be."....Not "For Rbz to be". It is the existence of existence itself, not the existence of you individually. That's what I was getting at. Therefore if you cease to exist Esse is unaffected becaues unlike you, it isn't potential. Both me and you have the potential to die in five minutes. What happens next is debatable.Points 1 and 2 establish that my existence is indubitable, and that to exist is to be an entity. The existence of my existence is and entity. There are now two entities. How are they different? Why treat one entity different than the other. This is exactly what point 5 does. That is inconsistent. The logic is flawed.
Point 1 establishes my existence, and only my existence. Point 3 says that the existence of my existence is an entity. Without my existence, there is no existence of existence. Therefore, esse has potentiality and is not purely actual.
Adder wrote...
esse lives onThat is an inconclusive assumption that has no place in the argument. The argument is at least trying to use logic.
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Rbz wrote...
Point 1 establishes my existence, and only my existence. Point 3 says that the existence of my existence is an entity. Without my existence, there is no existence of existence. Therefore, esse has potentiality.
So you are the only thing in existence now? Don't forget, this argument applies to everyone reading it.. Are you trying to say no one else exists?...Let alone animals, plants, and anything else that could possibly add to this? The only way for your logic to work here would be if:
A. You are the only being in existence and after you die you are dead and no other being ever comes around for all eternity.
B. You are God. (Which is of course ridiculous, seeing as how you and Esse are separate entities.)
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Adder wrote...
So you are the only thing in existence now? Don't forget, this argument applies to everyone reading it.. Are you trying to say no one else exists?...Let alone animals, plants, and anything else that could possibly add to this?You don't know how this argument works?
article wrote...
...manipulate you into thinking that what you perceive is actually there.Your and all other living thing's existence can be doubted because you could just be an illusion, dream, or what I am deceived to see. And if it is you who's reading the article, then you can doubt my existence too. Anything that can be doubted will be treated as if it doesn't exist. But, what can't be doubted is your own existence. That is how point 1 establishes your existence and only your existence. If you die, existence is no more.
Adder wrote...
God exists because people know he/she/it exists.No one person on this planet "knows" of gods existence. They just have faith in it.
If you meant god as an idea, then god exists only within the mind and not in the reality outside the mind.
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4st4r0th wrote...
There is a true god. Morgan Freeman.Don't worry, your post was not ignored. This thread has become an all out brawl between RBZ and Adder. My money is on RBZ.
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Rbz wrote...
Adder wrote...
So you are the only thing in existence now? Don't forget, this argument applies to everyone reading it.. Are you trying to say no one else exists?...Let alone animals, plants, and anything else that could possibly add to this?You don't know how this argument works?
article wrote...
...manipulate you into thinking that what you perceive is actually there.Your and all other living thing's existence can be doubted because you could just be an illusion, dream, or what I am deceived to see. And if it is you who's reading the article, then you can doubt my existence too. Anything that can be doubted will be treated as if it doesn't exist. But, what can't be doubted is your own existence. That is how point 1 establishes your existence and only your existence. If you die, existence is no more.
Adder wrote...
God exists because people know he/she/it exists.No one person on this planet "knows" of gods existence. They just have faith in it.
If you meant god as an idea, then god exists only within the mind and not in the reality outside the mind.
Mmkay, I'll buy that.
However, everything you perceive is false, correct? Then your perception of death, even your perception of time, is false. A brain that is already existing in a vat without a body has no means of dieing or its existence coming to an end. Therefor, your existence cannot come to an end, therefor esse cannot come to an end (even if you are the only other entity in existence, which is of course, idiotic.) and therefor your argument is pointless. Based off of that logic your existence won't end if everything you see and know- including death- is an illusion.
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Adder wrote...
However, everything you perceive is false, correct? Then your perception of death, even your perception of time, is false.First of all, death can't be perceived, since you'll have nothing to perceive it with. Second of all, it's not "everything you perceive false"(which is a strawman), it's everything that can be doubted will be treated as false. If you're dead, you can't doubt, which makes the esse argument meaningless.
A brain that is already existing in a vat without a body has no means of dieing or its existence coming to an end.
That is an inconclusive assumption and has no place in this argument. How would you know that something won't go wrong and the brain malfunctions because one of the wires fucks up? You don't. Since it isn't indubitable, it doesn't help the argument.
That esse argument is null. Your special pleading just makes you look desperate.
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Mrprinnybomb wrote...
4st4r0th wrote...
There is a true god. Morgan Freeman.Don't worry, your post was not ignored. This thread has become an all out brawl between RBZ and Adder. My money is on RBZ.
well how do we decide wich one who won then?
because there are some people that wont give upp on there asumptions, and this may be such a case...
However those people should remember that:
if you are not willing to reconsider them, then if they are false you wont recognise it even if the evidence is overwhelming. That means that you cant learn anything about the world that contradicts them, but are totaly correct.
You are sabotageing your own capicity for learning!!!
I recomend to you and everyone to watch this 10minutes video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI
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teoretikern wrote...
You are sabotageing your own capicity for learning!!!I recomend to you and everyone to watch this 10minutes video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI
I quite enjoyed that video. Thank you sir for posting it.
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Rbz wrote...
I believe in no god. Plus, me and religion don't mix. I do, however, prefer certain gods over others. For example, I think the Greek gods were fucking bad ass, and Jesus has nothing on Zeus.If I was somehow forced to believe in a god, then I'd just become a deist. God made the universe, then went away. Personality traits unnecessary.
I know its twelve pages in, but godamn what a first post.
Also Zeus was indeed badass. Jesus never impaled anyone on a lighning rod, did he?
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mibuchiha
Fakku Elder
Damn, why must all the interesting stuff happen when I was asleep?
And Adder, give it up, 'k? I won't say that your case is wrong since that would be jumping to the conclusion, but that esse argument is flawed.
This got nothing to the above statement, just more of what I think. Doesn't your argument assumes that the consciousness is a different existence than the brain itself?
And Adder, give it up, 'k? I won't say that your case is wrong since that would be jumping to the conclusion, but that esse argument is flawed.
This got nothing to the above statement, just more of what I think. Doesn't your argument assumes that the consciousness is a different existence than the brain itself?
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I'm gonna go ahead and put my 2 cents in on a certain subject. Yes I'm agnostic, ut both my parents are Methodist...and you know what? They're fine and I'm fine.
Despite what you believe, Religion isn't a bad thing. It's the foundation of our laws, it's the foundation of moral systems...without it people might just kill people they don't like and nobody would be able to do anything about it. Serial killers would run amok killing whoever whenever and tell EVERYONE they did it...and who's gonna say he can't? Without religion we can't TELL him, "You can't do that." We can't shake our fingers at anyone and say, "You're being a bad person." because without religion there's no such thing as bad people.
Despite what you believe, Religion isn't a bad thing. It's the foundation of our laws, it's the foundation of moral systems...without it people might just kill people they don't like and nobody would be able to do anything about it. Serial killers would run amok killing whoever whenever and tell EVERYONE they did it...and who's gonna say he can't? Without religion we can't TELL him, "You can't do that." We can't shake our fingers at anyone and say, "You're being a bad person." because without religion there's no such thing as bad people.
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Rbz wrote...
Adder wrote...
However, everything you perceive is false, correct? Then your perception of death, even your perception of time, is false.First of all, death can't be perceived, since you'll have nothing to perceive it with. Second of all, it's not "everything you perceive false"(which is a strawman), it's everything that can be doubted will be treated as false. If you're dead, you can't doubt, which makes the esse argument meaningless.
A brain that is already existing in a vat without a body has no means of dieing or its existence coming to an end.
That is an inconclusive assumption and has no place in this argument. How would you know that something won't go wrong and the brain malfunctions because one of the wires fucks up? You don't. Since it isn't indubitable, it doesn't help the argument.
That esse argument is null. Your special pleading just makes you look desperate.
First off, I am going to say that any reference to special pleading or straw men are, in themselves, straw men. Based off of the definition that a straw man is something irrelevant that makes it seem one has won an argument, mentioning it in an argument is itself a straw man.
Secondly, I'm going to have to disagree with you here.
Based off of step one I know I exist, but also based off of the argument, I know that I am doubting everything I see. In other words, the vat, the liquid, even the brain...It could all be a lie. You are not doubting far enough. If I doubt the existence of others, and they die, why should I believe in the condition of death? If I am existing, and have been existing since the start of whenever it was that I started existing- what is there to make me believe that this existence will end? Nothing. There is no indisputable evidence that one who doubts everything can find that would lead to him believing that his existence would come to an end. A "wire fucking up" is impossible, because you don't believe wires exist. It is an illusion. After all- the only things that can be proved to exist in this stage are self and esse. A lack of existence itself would lead to a completely different entity that was the embodiment of the idea of a lack of existence, which is self-contradictory.
If you are, however, going to continually repeat yourself in justifying what you believe to be a logical counter to the argument, I will simply supply another bit of writing.
Spoiler:
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Adder wrote...
First off, I am going to say that any reference to special pleading or straw men are, in themselves, straw men. Based off of the definition that a straw man is something irrelevant that makes it seem one has won an argument, mentioning it in an argument is itself a straw man.Haha, did you even read the examples of a strawman fallacy? Here, I'll fetch them for you:
Spoiler:
And guess what, you're guilty of 1 and 5. Also, pointing out your logical fallacies is completely relevant to the discussion. Are you shitting me? Pointing out flaws in the opponent's logic, irrelevant? Niggah, please.
Adder wrote...
Based off of step one I know I exist, but also based off of the argument, I know that I am doubting everything I see. In other words, the vat, the liquid, even the brain...It could all be a lie.Lol, then how do you exist? What's even more hilarious is that dismissing the vat as just a lie would contradict the stupid esse argument which says, and I quote:
Stupid esse argument wrote...
Suppose for a moment that you are not really a human being with an actual body. In reality, you are nothing more than a brain floating in a vat of fluids, with electrodes attached to various parts of your exterior that allow evil scientists to manipulate you into thinking that what you perceive is actually there, when in fact it is nothing more than an imaginary world constructed by the scientists.Adder wrote...
If I doubt the existence of others, and they die, why should I believe in the condition of death?Because you exist and you're not infinite.
Adder wrote...
If I am existing, and have been existing since the start of whenever it was that I started existing- what is there to make me believe that this existence will end?Nor do you have any proof that your existence will not end. Dude, the argument only works with propositions that are conclusive. Not 50%, not 99%, but 100%.
Adder wrote...
After all- the only things that can be proved to exist in this stage are self and esse.Even if I grant you that inconclusive proposition that you can't not exist, then that still leaves the problem of that stupid esse being treated differently from the other entity. Teh argument is null!
Stupid fucking writing wrote...
entropyI got one question for these assholes: How the fuck do you know that the universe is a CLOSED SYSTEM!?
BigLundi wrote...
Serial killers would run amok killing whoever whenever and tell EVERYONE they did it...and who's gonna say he can't? Without religion we can't TELL him, "You can't do that." We can't shake our fingers at anyone and say, "You're being a bad person." because without religion there's no such thing as bad people.Lol, he thinks that we need religion to know that murder is not really a good thing (especially to a society, and the world is filled with them). Seriously bro, you don't think that without religion, people would say, "We can't have murder because that would be detrimental to society, therefore we must outlaw it."
teoretikern wrote...
well how do we decide wich one who won then?If you're intelligent enough to follow the argument and understand the points put forth by the debaters, then you should be smart enough to know which one has the better argument. Whoever you side with, after evaluating their arguments, is in your opinion, the winner.
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mibuchiha
Fakku Elder
Rbz wrote...
Stupid fucking writing wrote...
entropyI got one question for these assholes: How the fuck do you know that the universe is a CLOSED SYSTEM!?
Well, even if the universe is a closed system, just how you can tell that the universe is gonna end in a heat death anyway? The physics community is not even sure whether the cosmological constant is a constant, or a function, and there's just as much possibility of the universe ending in the big crunch, which in the face of it goes against the 2nd law, or even big bounce, where the entropy resets after a certain time, or that it may go on forever.
That is if the universe is a closed system....
If it's not...well, buh-bye to your heat death. No equilibrium to reach, since the are places for the entropy to flow in.
I know that examples given are about the way the universe to end, but the main point is, we know too little to say anything about it just yet. And that includes the possibility of the universe or life ending.
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mibuchiha wrote...
Rbz wrote...
Stupid fucking writing wrote...
entropyI got one question for these assholes: How the fuck do you know that the universe is a CLOSED SYSTEM!?
Well, even if the universe is a closed system, just how you can tell that the universe is gonna end in a heat death anyway? The physics community is not even sure whether the cosmological constant is a constant, or a function, and there's just as much possibility of the universe ending in the big crunch, which in the face of it goes against the 2nd law, or even big bounce, where the entropy resets after a certain time, or that it may go on forever.
That is if the universe is a closed system....
If it's not...well, buh-bye to your heat death. No equilibrium to reach, since the are places for the entropy to flow in.
I know that examples given are about the way the universe to end, but the main point is, we know too little to say anything about it just yet. And that includes the possibility of the universe or life ending.
Thought I'd get an outside opinion, as I am not God, and so I do not have all the answers.
People on Y! answers on the subject wrote...
P1: The fact that it is expanding?
if the universe was not closed and was infinitely great how could it expand?
P2:The definition of the universe as being the entire spacetime manifold on which we live makes it a closed system, since by definition there is nothing connected to it. No evidence required.
I look forward to seeing what you come up with (as you would quaintly put it, "pull out of your ass"), for this one.
...Not to mention the fact that all that is happening in this debate (if you can even call it that by this point) is that I am putting up arguments, and all you are trying to do is disprove them in any way that just MIGHT justify your way of thinking, regardless of how obscure the point. Are you atheist, or an agnostic? Seriously. An atheist is supposed to be able to supply proof that God does not exist. An agnostic on the other hand just requires proof to be persuaded into believing in a God.
Atheism - Wikipedia
Agnosticism - Wikipedia
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teoretikern wrote...
Mrprinnybomb wrote...
4st4r0th wrote...
There is a true god. Morgan Freeman.Don't worry, your post was not ignored. This thread has become an all out brawl between RBZ and Adder. My money is on RBZ.
well how do we decide wich one who won then?
because there are some people that wont give upp on there asumptions, and this may be such a case...
However those people should remember that:
if you are not willing to reconsider them, then if they are false you wont recognise it even if the evidence is overwhelming. That means that you cant learn anything about the world that contradicts them, but are totaly correct.
You are sabotageing your own capicity for learning!!!
I recomend to you and everyone to watch this 10minutes video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI
I liked that video. And as far as who wins? Everybody that has posted in this thread will decide. Once this thread has gone far enough, everybody should post who they think won the debate. I think that would be fun to see.
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mibuchiha
Fakku Elder
People on Y! answers on the subject wrote...
P1: The fact that it is expanding?
if the universe was not closed and was infinitely great how could it expand?
P2:The definition of the universe as being the entire spacetime manifold on which we live makes it a closed system, since by definition there is nothing connected to it. No evidence required.
Might as well you ask pi has infinite decimal places, how can it be finite?
Joking aside, P2 makes sense....however....read this again. Carefully.
mibuchiha wrote...
Well, even if the universe is a closed system, just how you can tell that the universe is gonna end in a heat death anyway? The physics community is not even sure whether the cosmological constant is a constant, or a function, and there's just as much possibility of the universe ending in the big crunch, which in the face of it goes against the 2nd law, or even big bounce, where the entropy resets after a certain time, or that it may go on forever.That is if the universe is a closed system....
Now you understand why I say we know too little atm to make any conclusions?
Adder wrote...
An atheist is supposed to be able to supply proof that God does not exist. An agnostic on the other hand just requires proof to be persuaded into believing in a God. Lol, Argument from Ignorance.
Don't worry. I'm a proud atheist. Anyway...
Have you ever heard of the phrase "you can't prove a negative" before?
And I've posted it before...but here, again.
Russell's Teapot
The burden of proof lies on you, man. So do it. Ah, not the esse again. Rbz showed that it's a dud.
Ok, you turn to pull it out of your god.
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Actually agnosticism does not answer the question of what you belief.
agnostic comes from(α- a-, without + γνώσις gnÅsis, knowledge)
So it basically means without knowledge. An agnostic is a term you can add onto things based on a question pertaining to what you know.
I am a atheist agnostic.
atheist- I do not believe in god.
agnostic- but I do not know if there is no god. I am without the knowledge to prove that.
People can be a theist agnostic too.
You can also be a atheist gnostic and theist gnostic.
So there really isn't a fence to sit on when asking whether you believe there is a god or not. It is either yes or no.
I find that most people who say they are agnostic fall into the atheist category but a few fall on the other side.
agnostic comes from(α- a-, without + γνώσις gnÅsis, knowledge)
So it basically means without knowledge. An agnostic is a term you can add onto things based on a question pertaining to what you know.
I am a atheist agnostic.
atheist- I do not believe in god.
agnostic- but I do not know if there is no god. I am without the knowledge to prove that.
People can be a theist agnostic too.
You can also be a atheist gnostic and theist gnostic.
So there really isn't a fence to sit on when asking whether you believe there is a god or not. It is either yes or no.
I find that most people who say they are agnostic fall into the atheist category but a few fall on the other side.
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Adder wrote...
An atheist is supposed to be able to supply proof that God does not exist.Atheism is simply a lack of belief in deities. We're not supposed to do shit.
Adder wrote...
An agnostic on the other hand just requires proof to be persuaded into believing in a God.What the fuck! If I don't believe in a god, you don't think proof will persuade me to have belief in a god? Are you purposely trying to make atheism sound irrational as if we close ourselves off to any evidence of a god? There just is no evidence, deal with it.