Islam is a peaceful religion.
0
doswillrule wrote...
They're basically ghettos; poor, run down areas. The fact that a lot of the people living in them are Muslims makes little difference. They're crime beds just like anywhere else, and the police naturally find it difficult/are scared to confront them. They're only controlled by Sharia law in the sense that most Muslims live their lives by its principles. Neya, who has been to school in one such zone, would attest to that.
I see no difference between this and the contempt shown towards police by other poor minorities in other countries.
Sigh. Butting in. Firstly, I'll add that for "sharia law" to exist, there must be state enforcement of its principle, which is obviously not the case in France. People in ZUS live like everyone else on the french territory, under french law. You will never see a delinquent of muslim belief say "But I'm applying the sharia". That would be ridiculous.
Secondly, most of them have absolutely no idea what sharia law is.Religion is, as christianism, not that present in young population's culture. So they only live by principles their parents gave them, mostly basic things (food, alcohol etc) and few prayers. Some of them will read the Quran, but I believe the percentage of US citizens who have read the Bible is much higher than the percentage of French citizens of muslim conviction who have read the Quran.
Thirdly, gangs and organized criminal groups are NOT of religious origin, you will not make me believe you think they deal drugs cause the sharia law, hey. Let's be intellectually honest, religon is a vector, a prism to enhance emotions, such as jealousy and hate. It is used of course, and if you go for criminality, you better look in poor communities who are desillusioned and think they will never get out of there anyway.
Finally, "controlled by sharia law" is an aberration. Sharia law is nothing more than principles and guidelines taken from "God's word", the Quran and Mahomet's teachings. Applicable law must be defined by States, as Saudi Arabia does, and the Quran does not have Section 1 : Criminal law, Section 2 : Property law etc.
I hope my point is clear, and the grammar not too bad :D
0
Thanks for clarifying that, Neya.
Still, I think Saudi Arabia should get off its disgraceful fat ass and let countries like Malaysia represent Islam. The Middle East, and especially Saudi Arabia being the "capital" of Islam, is totally misrepresenting Muslims worldwide and hijacking it away from many Asian cultures who practice it as well.
That said, I don't support any form of theocracy. In fact, I'm one of those "crazy" atheists who wants Abrahamic religion abolished entirely! But even though, I think we should only criticize Islam for what it is, instead of what it isn't.
Let's put it on the same level as Christianity and THEN let's continue to tear it apart. Right now is not so appropriate.
Still, I think Saudi Arabia should get off its disgraceful fat ass and let countries like Malaysia represent Islam. The Middle East, and especially Saudi Arabia being the "capital" of Islam, is totally misrepresenting Muslims worldwide and hijacking it away from many Asian cultures who practice it as well.
That said, I don't support any form of theocracy. In fact, I'm one of those "crazy" atheists who wants Abrahamic religion abolished entirely! But even though, I think we should only criticize Islam for what it is, instead of what it isn't.
Let's put it on the same level as Christianity and THEN let's continue to tear it apart. Right now is not so appropriate.
1
Darkhilt wrote...
Well all these qoutes are from the Islamic Institute of Education's English translated quran.Mostly fromAl-Ma'ida(5:[83-86],5:[78-82].) or سورة المائدة
as for the last qoute I forgot where exactly I found it
As to if I'm interested, quite a lot actually.
Now that my life doesn't revolve around studying/grinding for hours on end and generally is cut between free time and work I've occupied myself by randomly delving into various medias.As a Roman Catholic, I find interest in other followers of God,Christians excluded. Islam has been quite a void to me and considering I dont have any Muslim friends or know of a place to consult in your beliefs it's quite a saddening feeling to me to make presumption without a hand in the waters of a topic.(I picked up the Quran two days ago and truly a lot of it is inspired, I find GREAT similarity between it,the Torah, and the Bible.Many of the stories I've grown up with are contained here and quite afew messages are mirrored.Perhaps such a topic such as God is often difficult to comprehend, causing much chaos between his followers and often different ideals such as you and us Christians perceiving Jesus as the Masih but only us Christians believing he is the Savior and Lord,while all three believe he is a great prophet.)
Well if you would like to speak to other muslims, i suggest going on to Muslim forums... In terms of what the muslim populous believes, it is good to see what other muslims think and what are their opinions. I suggest giving it a try. their a loads of people that would love to remove any ignorance or doubt from people who have a lack of information on Islam.
6
I think why a lot of people have a problem with Islam is because they see how 'Islamist' countries act. Not just radicals, or the crazy extremist, entire countries under the wing of Islam.
Look at how women are treated across the board in the Middle East, especially in traditional Muslim areas, or Islamist states, and then look at women in secular Turkey. Huge difference. But you also find in the more "Islamic" or traditional areas of the country women are more likely to be treated poorly.
Also it is the fact that there are still theocracies in the world which is frighting to people, especially the west. The fact that entire countries have religion and government mixed is very bad for someone who is raised to always believe in a separation for church and state.
I have Muslim friends, quite a few in Turkey, and Indonesia(Sure I spelled that wrong). Talking with them a lot I really see a difference in someone being a "Muslim" and "Islam"
In the end you just don't see any Christian, Jewish, or Buddhist theocracies committing horrible human right violations against half their population(Women) but you do see many Islamic countries doing just that and being fully supported by law and populace.
Just look at the recent case in Afghanistan(I can put up links if you want) A women was raped and then sent to prison because she was raped. Though they were thinking of releasing her if she agreed to marry the man who raped her. What made it famous is the fact that the president gave her a pardon but it is still unclear if she will have to marry the man. They cite Islam and their believes of women within that religion on why they do this. And back it up with their believe in god and Islam. And they have the support of the majority of the populace to carry out these acts and these believes.
And where is the horrible outcry by the peaceful Muslims? Where are their protests, their marches, their blogs, their tv shows, their ads, their social network campaign to condemn and try to stop these extremists that give them a bad name? To tell them how they treat women is horrible and they deserve to be brought to justice, or to tell them atheists have a right to believe how they want and should have just as much voice as them? That a person can make fun of Mohammad and shouldn't have to suffer death threats, and that the person who bought the threats forward should be arrested.
I don't see that are large scale, or even relatively small scale happening and I make a point to look for it in a sort of never giving up hopeful kind of way.
Look at how women are treated across the board in the Middle East, especially in traditional Muslim areas, or Islamist states, and then look at women in secular Turkey. Huge difference. But you also find in the more "Islamic" or traditional areas of the country women are more likely to be treated poorly.
Also it is the fact that there are still theocracies in the world which is frighting to people, especially the west. The fact that entire countries have religion and government mixed is very bad for someone who is raised to always believe in a separation for church and state.
I have Muslim friends, quite a few in Turkey, and Indonesia(Sure I spelled that wrong). Talking with them a lot I really see a difference in someone being a "Muslim" and "Islam"
In the end you just don't see any Christian, Jewish, or Buddhist theocracies committing horrible human right violations against half their population(Women) but you do see many Islamic countries doing just that and being fully supported by law and populace.
Just look at the recent case in Afghanistan(I can put up links if you want) A women was raped and then sent to prison because she was raped. Though they were thinking of releasing her if she agreed to marry the man who raped her. What made it famous is the fact that the president gave her a pardon but it is still unclear if she will have to marry the man. They cite Islam and their believes of women within that religion on why they do this. And back it up with their believe in god and Islam. And they have the support of the majority of the populace to carry out these acts and these believes.
And where is the horrible outcry by the peaceful Muslims? Where are their protests, their marches, their blogs, their tv shows, their ads, their social network campaign to condemn and try to stop these extremists that give them a bad name? To tell them how they treat women is horrible and they deserve to be brought to justice, or to tell them atheists have a right to believe how they want and should have just as much voice as them? That a person can make fun of Mohammad and shouldn't have to suffer death threats, and that the person who bought the threats forward should be arrested.
I don't see that are large scale, or even relatively small scale happening and I make a point to look for it in a sort of never giving up hopeful kind of way.
0
According to my opinion, It is not only Islam. All religion is a peaceful religion however it the "follower" that matter.
This problem is not only for Islam i believe. Each religion has always had their own problem for example: Islam extremist who mislead the believe of the Muslims into their own kind of "Islam" and commit terrorism action.
Christian probably also have their own share of problem like how some Priest was caught with sodomizing little kids case.
Even Buddhist has case where if i am not mistaken, the monk take some of the donated money to buy himself a big house meanwhile the donation is meant for helping familyless children.
From the case my opinion said that it is not the fault of the religion but on the followers as using religion for commiting wrong doings is always easier compare to doing bad things with no purpose at all.
This problem is not only for Islam i believe. Each religion has always had their own problem for example: Islam extremist who mislead the believe of the Muslims into their own kind of "Islam" and commit terrorism action.
Christian probably also have their own share of problem like how some Priest was caught with sodomizing little kids case.
Even Buddhist has case where if i am not mistaken, the monk take some of the donated money to buy himself a big house meanwhile the donation is meant for helping familyless children.
From the case my opinion said that it is not the fault of the religion but on the followers as using religion for commiting wrong doings is always easier compare to doing bad things with no purpose at all.
0
doswillrule wrote...
snipI must admit my post was poorly constructed, cited, hyperbolic, etc. Regardless, I concede defeat.
Cee45 wrote...
I think why a lot of people have a problem with Islam is because they see how 'Islamist' countries act. Not just radicals, or the crazy extremist, entire countries under the wing of Islam.Look at how women are treated across the board in the Middle East, especially in traditional Muslim areas, or Islamist states, and then look at women in secular Turkey. Huge difference. But you also find in the more "Islamic" or traditional areas of the country women are more likely to be treated poorly.
Also it is the fact that there are still theocracies in the world which is frighting to people, especially the west. The fact that entire countries have religion and government mixed is very bad for someone who is raised to always believe in a separation for church and state.
I have Muslim friends, quite a few in Turkey, and Indonesia(Sure I spelled that wrong). Talking with them a lot I really see a difference in someone being a "Muslim" and "Islam"
In the end you just don't see any Christian, Jewish, or Buddhist theocracies committing horrible human right violations against half their population(Women) but you do see many Islamic countries doing just that and being fully supported by law and populace.
Just look at the recent case in Afghanistan(I can put up links if you want) A women was raped and then sent to prison because she was raped. Though they were thinking of releasing her if she agreed to marry the man who raped her. What made it famous is the fact that the president gave her a pardon but it is still unclear if she will have to marry the man. They cite Islam and their believes of women within that religion on why they do this. And back it up with their believe in god and Islam. And they have the support of the majority of the populace to carry out these acts and these believes.
And where is the horrible outcry by the peaceful Muslims? Where are their protests, their marches, their blogs, their tv shows, their ads, their social network campaign to condemn and try to stop these extremists that give them a bad name? To tell them how they treat women is horrible and they deserve to be brought to justice, or to tell them atheists have a right to believe how they want and should have just as much voice as them? That a person can make fun of Mohammad and shouldn't have to suffer death threats, and that the person who bought the threats forward should be arrested.
I don't see that are large scale, or even relatively small scale happening and I make a point to look for it in a sort of never giving up hopeful kind of way.
Excellent post.
1
Islam is not a peaceful religion, just as any extremely succesful and widespread religion is not a peaceful religon. People tend to forget that most of the pagan population was slaughtered in order to Christianize Europe. It's for this reason that Islam and Christianity dominate Buddhism, even in India, it's country of origin.
The reason we see so many horrendous acts propagated by Islam isn't because it's inherently different from other faiths, but because it's afforded a much longer leash in the 3rd world, where it's free to bully and domineer the weak and uneducated without consequence. Catholicism has recntly made similar power-grabs in Africa, by using AIDS as a make-shift propaganda tool to control the people and causing thousands of deaths in the process. Though people tend to not be as afraid of those crimes, because we have our own kinder, gentler version of Catholicism here overseas.
It's all relative and all this black and white, us versus them arguing is completely ridiculous. As if religions were their own beings and not simply reflections of the individuals that practice them.
The reason we see so many horrendous acts propagated by Islam isn't because it's inherently different from other faiths, but because it's afforded a much longer leash in the 3rd world, where it's free to bully and domineer the weak and uneducated without consequence. Catholicism has recntly made similar power-grabs in Africa, by using AIDS as a make-shift propaganda tool to control the people and causing thousands of deaths in the process. Though people tend to not be as afraid of those crimes, because we have our own kinder, gentler version of Catholicism here overseas.
It's all relative and all this black and white, us versus them arguing is completely ridiculous. As if religions were their own beings and not simply reflections of the individuals that practice them.
0
Cee45 wrote...
And where is the horrible outcry by the peaceful Muslims? Where are their protests, their marches, their blogs, their tv shows, their ads, their social network campaign to condemn and try to stop these extremists that give them a bad name? To tell them how they treat women is horrible and they deserve to be brought to justice, or to tell them atheists have a right to believe how they want and should have just as much voice as them? That a person can make fun of Mohammad and shouldn't have to suffer death threats, and that the person who bought the threats forward should be arrested.
I couldn't agree more with this statement.
0
To me, there are plenty of muslims that are good peaceful folk, just like everyone else. The problem is that once some idiot(s) gets out and does something stupid and people call them out on it, they point to them and say "See this how all (insert group here) are like!"
0
Jonoe wrote...
Cee45 wrote...
And where is the horrible outcry by the peaceful Muslims? Where are their protests, their marches, their blogs, their tv shows, their ads, their social network campaign to condemn and try to stop these extremists that give them a bad name? To tell them how they treat women is horrible and they deserve to be brought to justice, or to tell them atheists have a right to believe how they want and should have just as much voice as them? That a person can make fun of Mohammad and shouldn't have to suffer death threats, and that the person who bought the threats forward should be arrested.
I couldn't agree more with this statement.
Well making fun of a person believes is okay? While i know that the dead threats is just way over, people must understand that some joke will not be perceived as joke for the others.
It is just the same if ur object of believes is being make fun of, will just said "Ohh it is just a joke?"
0
casiopao wrote...
Well making fun of a person believes is okay? While i know that the dead threats is just way over, people must understand that some joke will not be perceived as joke for the others.It is just the same if ur object of believes is being make fun of, will just said "Ohh it is just a joke?"
The only thing is that here, in western countries, we have the freedom of speech.
Make fun of Jews: It's a funny joke.
Makes fun of Christians: It's a funny joke.
Make fun of Muslims: Receive death threats and have your business burned down.
Something there just doesn't seem to be correct.
0
Stenta wrote...
casiopao wrote...
Well making fun of a person believes is okay? While i know that the dead threats is just way over, people must understand that some joke will not be perceived as joke for the others.It is just the same if ur object of believes is being make fun of, will just said "Ohh it is just a joke?"
The only thing is that here, in western countries, we have the freedom of speech.
Make fun of Jews: It's a funny joke.
Makes fun of Christians: It's a funny joke.
Make fun of Muslims: Receive death threats and have your business burned down.
Something there just doesn't seem to be correct.
ya, religion sucks. that's what's correct =_=;
0
The only thing is that here, in western countries, we're not the same as other cultures.
That said, it still doesn't excuse a dictator spreading even more lies and integrating baseless laws into Islam by repeating enough that it is Islamic.
I still fail to see anywhere in the quron or haddiths forbidding the illustration of Mohammad, except BARELY a line about it in the haddiths, for example. Just where the heck are they getting all these laws from, and why are people so persistent to follow them!?
It makes no sense from a spiritual perspective that so many people who claim to be religious fanatics won't read their own danged rule book properly.
That said, it still doesn't excuse a dictator spreading even more lies and integrating baseless laws into Islam by repeating enough that it is Islamic.
I still fail to see anywhere in the quron or haddiths forbidding the illustration of Mohammad, except BARELY a line about it in the haddiths, for example. Just where the heck are they getting all these laws from, and why are people so persistent to follow them!?
It makes no sense from a spiritual perspective that so many people who claim to be religious fanatics won't read their own danged rule book properly.
0
Stenta wrote...
casiopao wrote...
Well making fun of a person believes is okay? While i know that the dead threats is just way over, people must understand that some joke will not be perceived as joke for the others.It is just the same if ur object of believes is being make fun of, will just said "Ohh it is just a joke?"
The only thing is that here, in western countries, we have the freedom of speech.
Make fun of Jews: It's a funny joke.
Makes fun of Christians: It's a funny joke.
Make fun of Muslims: Receive death threats and have your business burned down.
Something there just doesn't seem to be correct.
Well that shows that not all religion is the same then. Maybe the Islam's believes that the topic of joke is is not funny at all to them and think the joke as something attacking their believe.
Anyway, does having a freedom of speech caused somebody to be unsensitive towards others feeling? As by the way u said that u will also allowed those Muslim's to say anything bad towards ur religion with the same excuse" freedom of speech".
2
Islam is not a peaceful religion.
What is true, however, is that there are peaceful muslims, and indeed many muslims are moderates that don't go around screaming at infidels. However this does not make Islam a peaceful religion.
It's the same with christianity. Christians regularly state that their religion is peaceful and moral. Yet when I read the book they proclaim to be 100% true, this is most certainly not the case.
If you want to follow a religion, but be peaceful while doing it, then that's fine, and I have no objections to it, but it's an outright lie to call either Islam or Christianity 'peaceful' religions, or 'moral' religions. They are not.
IF you want a peaceful religion, then you look to Jainism. That is a peaceful religion. Jainism's core tenet is nonviolence. This is not the case with either Christianity or Islam, indeed both religions, iwithin their holy books often refer to violence, sanction violence, and say that it's in some ways necessary.
I know that you can come up with peaceful sounding verses from the Serah, or the Hadith, or the Koran, but likewise I can come up with inversely proportional violent quotes from al three as well, or immoral ones that talk down to gender differences or religious differences. In order to ignore these more despicable verses, you must abandon some of the fundamentals of your religion. I don't mind when peole do this, but it would be wonderful if people would be a little more honest about it.
What is true, however, is that there are peaceful muslims, and indeed many muslims are moderates that don't go around screaming at infidels. However this does not make Islam a peaceful religion.
It's the same with christianity. Christians regularly state that their religion is peaceful and moral. Yet when I read the book they proclaim to be 100% true, this is most certainly not the case.
If you want to follow a religion, but be peaceful while doing it, then that's fine, and I have no objections to it, but it's an outright lie to call either Islam or Christianity 'peaceful' religions, or 'moral' religions. They are not.
IF you want a peaceful religion, then you look to Jainism. That is a peaceful religion. Jainism's core tenet is nonviolence. This is not the case with either Christianity or Islam, indeed both religions, iwithin their holy books often refer to violence, sanction violence, and say that it's in some ways necessary.
I know that you can come up with peaceful sounding verses from the Serah, or the Hadith, or the Koran, but likewise I can come up with inversely proportional violent quotes from al three as well, or immoral ones that talk down to gender differences or religious differences. In order to ignore these more despicable verses, you must abandon some of the fundamentals of your religion. I don't mind when peole do this, but it would be wonderful if people would be a little more honest about it.
0
I don't think I'm an Islamaphobe. I dislike all terrorists equally.
In all seriousness, I'm don't agree with your religion (or any religion in fact), but don't feel nervous or uneasy around Muslims. They're just people with different beliefs.
In all seriousness, I'm don't agree with your religion (or any religion in fact), but don't feel nervous or uneasy around Muslims. They're just people with different beliefs.
0
casiopao wrote...
Well that shows that not all religion is the same then. Maybe the Islam's believes that the topic of joke is is not funny at all to them and think the joke as something attacking their believe.Well that's great for them. But here, I have news for you: in western countries that's perfectly legal. As much as you hate the freedom of speech, you, and your buds, are gonna have to learn to deal with it just like the rest of us.
The Muslims LOVE to cry and whine that no one can make fun of their religion and that we don't have the right and that the freedom of speech is an atrocity, especially when it works against them. But then they, when it suits them, act on their freedom of speech to show us things like: -- But criticizing Islam might hurt somebody's feelings.
0
Anyway, does having a freedom of speech caused somebody to be unsensitive towards others feeling? As by the way u said that u will also allowed those Muslim's to say anything bad towards ur religion with the same excuse" freedom of speech".
Yes, exactly. Freedom of speech will allow anyone else to make fun of, disagree, or say whatever about I believe as much as I can about what they believe.
That is the point of the "Freedom" it doesn't just apply to me, but to everyone. I don't agree with the idea"because my feelings are hurt" gives anyone the right to harm another person. Or attempt to harm another person.
In society things need to be made fun of, things that are ugly topics need to be talked about, for any kind of change or transparency in the world people can't be punished or afraid to speak about something.
Say I don't believe in any religion, and I am offended every time I see a church, or mosque. Or say anytime people say "I'll pray for you" or "god bless" or even "merry Christmas" I get extremely offended as what they are doing is extremely insensitive to my believes. Does it suddenly give me the right to hurt them? Or not allow them to say those things? No. It does not.
0
If the Westboro Baptist Church could protest someone's funeral, then Islamic radicals could protest crap if we draw a comic making fun of Mohammad.
I just had to throw that out there. That too, is freedom is speech.
I just had to throw that out there. That too, is freedom is speech.
0
Lishy1 wrote...
If the Westboro Baptist Church could protest someone's funeral, then Islamic radicals could protest crap if we draw a comic making fun of Mohammad.I just had to throw that out there. That too, is freedom is speech.
At least WBC doesn't try to kill or beat people.
Link related, it's what happens when you make fun of Mohammed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2IHnWY-i6Y