Debate on Mosque & Cultural Center near 9/11 grounds

So you're saying that it's fine to judge out all Muslims as terrorists? Just because some over-zealous fuck blew up the Twin Towers? And that instead to try and make people realize that most of them aren't fundamentalists we should try to alienate them as much as possible?



I would be totally fine with a bulldozer flattening down the unused field on the side of the cemetery in order to make a liquor-store.

Actually having had close friends being killed by a drunk driver I can say that I don't despise people that drink, I condemn those that drink and drive. Just as with religion, I don't condemn Islam but I do condemn those that use it as an accuse in acts of terrorism.

I'm not saying we should blame an entire religion.

Not once have I said that.

But there is a fucking difference than blaming a religion and knowing that we can't help associations as human beings.

It's what we fucking do. I'm not blaming them for blowing up the tower. I don't hold these people responsible.

But their decision to try and build as fucking close as they can to a site that the association would be rubbing the salt into wounds of people who have lost family members because of this, is fucking retarded.

Nice association.

Except not all drunk drivers are the ones that killed your friends. So you're blaming by association you know. Maybe some of the people who had a little bit to drink are completely fine to drive. So that should be ok, right?

So you just go into a serious discussion to insults me cause you don't like my completely valid opinion ,and I'M the dick ? Good call ,douche. When I said don't be butt hurt I was referring to the mosque..getting mad over that building is the equivalent of the family of someone who was killed by a homicidal clown getting pissed that their opening up a circus nearby...ya they can get pissed , but come the fuck on..missed placed blame much ? And finally when the fuck has it ever mattered ? I don't know since human beings became fucking logical creatures able to control their emotions ?..but hey wtf I mean it's not like we INVADED afghanistan...oh wait..I was a marine ,and I did end up going their..well shit , I guess we better start supporting attacks on our troops over seas , by the families of the Taliban, or those innocents killed in the crossfire by the US..cause...well I mean their feelings are hurt :( ...the laws are in place for a reason dick , don't start preaching sympathy to me when I SAW what we did in retaliation.

That's exactly the intention of the Muslim community. To rub salt into people's wounds. Yep.

I understand that we can't escape being influenced by something like this, but we shoudln't be. But since we can't help it thus we should try as hard as we can getting rid of the prejudices that something like this brings.



And maybe some Muslims don't go blowing shit up, so that should be ok, right?

We also have scientific proof of how alcohol affects the majority of the people, and how it dulls the senses. What we do not have is scientific proof on how Islam makes most people more keen to blow shit up.

Your completely valid opinion consisted of "Lawl, these guys are butthurt." Even if you have reasons, which I already supplied reasons why. This is an entirely dickish thing to say. Regardless of context. You can be a dick with reasons. But you're still a dick.

Did I say that the innocents killed by war isn't unjust? Did I say we shouldn't do something for the people we wrong in this way?

Gee, way to throw something out there and suggest I don't care about it.

And way to throw out "The laws are in place for a reason." again. Cause I totally am talking about the laws right now. Totally.

I mean it isn't like I even stated, outright, for you that I wasn't talking about them. Nah, couldn't have been.



Tegumi: Well first off I never talked about intentions. Second off, people can have the best of intentions and still do the most horrific of things you know.

Intentions mean shit about what is actually going to happen. And it doesn't make it any less retarded what they're trying to do.



Chlor: This isn't about people being prejudiced. This is about people who are genuinely hurt by something that greatly affected their very lives.

Do you go around telling dead baby jokes to someone who lost an infant due to some tragic accident, or maybe even just a miscarriage to "help them over it."? If you do, that's pretty damn sadistic of you.

We have evidence on how social environment can change your attitude and the way you perceive things.

And the majority of people can drive just fine after a single beer. Scientifically speaking. You can see the average distribution of how alcohol affects people by how much they consume of it. I've seen the graph before. Numerous times actually.

But it's still a perception of drinking and driving. It would still be included under your people that you have associated with against because of what occurred.

And not all associations are bad. In fact, the very reasons we have them in the first place as human beings is because of adaptability and all that jazz.

This association is bad. Very bad. If the majority of the Muslim-community were in fact terrorist then the association would be valid but that's not the case now.

"We have evidence on how social environment can change your attitude and the way you perceive things." - Exactly! This is what I am talking about, build it right there where everyone can see it, they shouldn't even be able to miss it! And try to make it so that every Muslim in the NYC goes there. This way more people will see how these assumed terrorists are not so bad, that most of them are good, honest and, hardworking people not so different from you and me.

People shouldn't be hurt because of something like this, these Muslims had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. If they were to build an altar to praise Bin Laden then they'd have an excuse to be upset about it, as it is now, they don't. Really.

And this isn't about drinking and driving, the example is no longer relevant. You should have understood what I meant and if you didn't, go read it again, I'm sure you'll get it soon enough.

Or the example could work if the majority of people who drive after drinking are perfectly capable of driving just fine because they are not that affected by the alcohol.

Which actually, is true. You just see the bad results more, because well, they are bad.

I never said that particular association was good. But I'm also not going to fault those people for feeling pain.

Like before. If a mother loses a child. She's still going to feel pain when she sees children. Even if they have nothing to do with it.

So, why in God's name, would you go parade around in front of her proclaiming how awesome your child is knowing full well about her situation? Even going out of your way to constantly attack her with it?

I understand the intentions, or at least what I hope the actual intentions are, for building there.

But it's still retarded. You don't try to force people not to feel pain by rubbing salt into their wounds. It doesn't work that way. You have to approach this from a more gentle manner than shoving it down people's throats as far as you possibly can.

I'm sure you could have the best of intentions doing it, but well. You're still trying to shove it down their throats.

Oh, and do you know why I was actually stating that? Or did you pull it up and bold it because you thought it sounded awesome?

If it wasn't their intention, then why is the decision retarded? Trying to foster better understanding of their religion and wean people off bigotry falls pretty far from the retarded tree in my book.

Actually as it is now, I personally think that shoving it as deep down their throats as they possibly can is the right approach, because otherwise we will never get anywhere. Just like with the mother, she looses a child and she has the right to be sad and mourn, but she has to realize that the world hasn't ended and that she shouldn't despise every other woman who has a child, if she was still brooding over it after such a long time I would slap her in the face and tell her to get over herself, otherwise it would only be a self-destructive spiral straight to hell.
The subtle approach has been going on long enough, it's time that someone finally takes action.

And no, I don't really know why you put it up there, but I used it because it was spot-on what I was saying.

http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/florida-mosque-bombed-fbi-calls-help-nation

This is pretty interesting. Also, note the date of bombing/blog post. Also note, that even during this time, some 3 months since this blog post, there has still been no mention of this. Someone told me Keith Olbermann mentioned it once in a show, but that was about it.

I think this has relevance to the mosque debate. I think it truly shows intolerance over Islam in general, and to make this a bigger point, this was done before reports of the mosque over Ground Zero. Yet, nobody cared enough to make this a national news story that should have been HUGE news, even if it was a small domestic terror incident. Just goes to show how much we hate Islam in our nation, that we don't care enough to report intolerance.

This idea that we have to stop this mosque because this is a fight against Islam terrorists and that they are trying to put up a victory mosque is just ludicrous.

I think this sense of Islamophobia is just too pervasive in our country. Face it, many Americans have this harbored notion that all terrorists are Muslim and that we must fight these terrorists (who just happen to be Muslims.)

This mosque debate has shown it's ugly face in that we are truly afraid of Islam......We are afraid they will have a "victory" mosque at ground zero (which isn't exactly at Ground Zero, it happens to be a few blocks away). What happened to freedom of religion? Don't we allow people to pray where they want, when they want, to who they want?

I don't think we're afraid of terrorists in general. We're afraid of Islam, and the fact that the terrorists who attacked us happened to be representing extreme right factions of Islam. That any Muslim could be a terrorist grinds away at the hearts of Americans, letting us wage a war to stop terrorists across the Middle East.

And again, back to my original link, we only care when the terrorists are Muslim. Not when they attack the religion of Islam. Actually, that might be a good thing according to us Americans...

sadface.jpg

The way I see it its like a bunch of whacked out Christians on a Crusade plowing a 747 into the Black Rock at Mecca during the Hajj pilgrimage then a Christian organization a few years later build a Church and a 'Christian centre' a few blocks away from the site of the attack!

Will Muslims turn the other cheek on that one seeing as not ALL Christians are bad? (Maybe... Maybe not) >__>

But Americans are the ones protesting that it might be a "bit unsensitive" to build there so obviously... Fuck them, their grief and their feelings! :(

Americas the 'land of opportunity' all right! (Thats my take on this whole sorry business)

Alright here's how I see it, first of all it's not actually a mosque, it's an Islamic comunity center that has a small place where you can pray, there are chapels in prisons but we don't call them churches. Also why the fuck does it matter if it's near ground zero, I mean if it was literally on it then maybe, but it's two blocks away isn't that far enoungh, and for the people saying "move it. farther away" ok but what about the people protesting the building of a mosque in tennesse, is that still to close for yeah. I wonder what would happen if some christens bombed an abortion clinic killing everyone inside and then the same people build a church on the same site, you know what people would do FUCKING NOTHING, why the he'll are christen extremist so afride, that someone will join the Islamic religion "well yes then they'd be worshiping a false god" CHRISTIENS, JEWS, AND MUSLIMS ALL WORSHIP THE SAME GOD. I would also like to point out the the most odvious reason in my argument, THE FUCKING CONSITUTION, it says that all people of America have the right to religious freedom that means every religion Islamn, Jewish, Satanist, The church of the fucking flying spegettie monster, all religions not just the ones we like. Also this is one of the FIRST, and probaly last, issues I actully agree with Obama on. And that ladies and gentalmen was my two cents, ok it was more like 10 bucks but whatever

It doesn't matter in what part of NYC they want to build it, some mindless fox news followers will protest anyway.

I want to highlight this part of his post. A lot of people seem to have this misunderstanding that they're building a solely religious center. Here's the official website of the center, with a listing of the facilities Park51 will house: http://www.park51.org/facilities.htm

For those who doubt the Imam's intentions, I encourage you to read this Time article as a starting point to learning more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2008432,00.html

It's ironic how so many people are calling this building an "insensitive" act. We need to take off our own glasses and put on the lenses of a Muslim-American's for a little bit. What do you see?

I lost an aunt to 9/11, and I'm sick and tired of this even being an issue in the first place. Here's a group of people the general public and media like to ignore: http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/

You do realize the REASON for why the American public thinks the whole war happened is 2 blocks from where the mosque will be situated? You don't think that's going to set anyone off?

Yes, they have every right to build where ever they want, even on top of the grounds the twin towers stood. The law definitely says they are free to do so as long as they have the right to the properties, and I am not confused about this fact.

But the fact remains that it is definitely not an act froth with consideration. If any of you are educated in proper etiquette, there shouldn't be any confusion as to why the American people are angry.

Quite frankly, I don't care where they're situated and I don't think it was Rauf's intention to rub salt in America's wound. But if he was really aiming for a better relationship between the people, then I don't see why he would be so adamant in building in a location that has set people on a rampage. Even if unintentional, he has accidentally knocked some salt on America's wound.



This will not improve relations between people of Islam and Americans. While I believe it was not Rauf's intention to piss off the American public, I also don't believe it was his intention for a better relationship between the Islam and US citizens. These two groups will hardly mingle with each other in their day-to-day lives for a change in relationship with increased contact. In fact, it might have the opposite effect now with this controversy. Some might not like the fact that there are people attending services in a building they were against.



Generalization isn't something new. Look all around the world (perhaps even in the middle east), and throughout history. Might be insightful.



This article's bias has reached Fox News levels. Anyways, it didn't change my outlook of the Imam in the least. I still don't think he had either good or bad intentions.

I don't think that his initial intentions were anything past getting a good location for the Cultural Center either, but now that it has come to this it proves how ignorant and just plain stupid the general public can be. I can honestly say that I would fight harder for my cause if people were trying to get me to back down for reasons like this, childish perhaps but I think most people would act like this as well when the ones protesting have no legal backing, and nothing more than a personal reason to why they disprove of it. The general Muslim-community is already shunned upon, and protesting against something like this just feeds the prejudices people have. I can honestly see no bad side with the Cultural Center. Except that the kids hanging around might befriend a Muslim, and we can't have that, can we?

Generalization fuck things up. Look all around the world (perhaps even in the middle east), and throughout history. Might be insightful.

Perhaps it was froth with consideration, just not practicality? I'd garner that the proposal was made before they realized how overly bigoted the American public is.

It seems this opinion is true. I dunno what's in their head build a mosque near the site. it's like trow a salt to a not yet healed wound. please take the 9/11 victim feeling into consideration. there many way to reconcile.

oh does anyone mention to ram a Mecca with 747's in peak of Hajj pilgrimare? I eagerly wanna see what's happen next.

explanation. to do the retaliate act like that maybe is not a clever way to do. It's like giving a dormant radikal moslem group a reason to act. and if that happen. be prepared to face a WW3. that consequences is maybe worse than one year war. but if anyone still wanna do that. be my guest.

It doesn't really profoundly affect me one way or another, but people do need to realize that Muslims nor the Islamic religions are bad as a whole. There are just "bad" people that misconstrue things in violent and terrible ways. Oh how easily we forget how evil Christianity was during the past. Several Inquisitions are apparently so easy to forget.

Anyway, I see no reason for their not to be a Mosque near Ground Zero. Religious reasons be damned personally, but at least that is viable to certain people, or if their are other reasons that an individual is against the construction, but refusing the idea based on the belief that all Muslims are the enemy of Americans is, well as Family Guy put it "shallow and pedantic."