Debate on Mosque & Cultural Center near 9/11 grounds

If you want to talk about the damage this center is going to do nationally, blame the politician who tweeted about this and brought it into the national spotlight -- not the center itself or the Imam. Hardly anybody cared about this entire ordeal just a few months ago, while it was still just between the Manhattan community and 9/11 families.



Since when were the polled opinions of 1,002 adults representative of the majority of Americans? The opinions of subscribers to a publication that tends to cater to those who lean to the right, nonetheless. I could give you a Newsweek link that shows a majority of Americans support it, but would that have any credibility over representing a "majority"? Hardly. It'd only show you the opinion of largely left-leaning subscribers who took the time to reply to the poll -- which is why I didn't include it in my last post.

If it was a majority, a lot more politicians would be taking action against this. As it stands though, the opposition to this center only seems to come from a select group of people whose ideals lean to the right. A few republican politicians have picked up on this and are mentioning it in their campaigns, but most don't touch the matter.



Not seeing the forest for its trees.

I agree and I do put blame on how an anthill became a mountain on the political tweets. But I am putting blame on the continued controversy on the Imam and the CC. I do realize the real problem lies with the ones who oppose the project, but convincing a board to relocate is much easier than convincing a large population that they're being irrational. If the Imam really wants to build a stronger relation with the American citizens, I think the best answer and the easiest fix would be to remove the mosque from the community center plans and build it somewhere farther from GZ.



I was hoping to avoid you claiming my source uncredible by using the same source you quoted earlier, but it seems Time magazine has suddenly become unreliable in the last few pages.

Also if one Googles what the alignment of Time magazine was, they would find that the majority generally puts it on the left side of the political spectrum.



I saw a Newsweek article that the community board voted in favor of it. But the fact still remains that majority of other pollers have shown results that people are opposed to the project.



Because politicians are in tune with people's opinions. Like America's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan...



No one can describe the bigger picture without mentioning the details.

Off topic:

If you weren't, you wouldn't generalize us like that. Pick your words out more carefully next time.

The only citizenship I hold is one for the United States, and I'd refer to Americans in the third-person. I see nothing wrong.

The point was on being unbiased.

You have to sometimes spell out things carefully for Tegumi, and even then she often doesn't get it.

No worries, Tegs, at least I understand what you were getting at.

You seem to think the case was no understanding her.

We get what she was saying. She was just misaddressing the point being made.

Just because i generalize a group of people doesn't make it bias, just PC tbh. What am i suppose to say? The majority of the American population should realize how ridiculous their shenanigans are and should learn to accept the Islamic/Muslim peoples rights as equal to there selves? Don't be silly.

If i had generalized Americans in a good way, there would've been anything but a fuss. And I never said i wasn't bias either, its a debate, what do you expect? The shit i see, my view as outsiders on America, non-propaganda, makes your country look like a joke in terms of your stance on humanitarian rights. Theres a reason why there tends to be a certain trend of hate for Americans in outside country's worldwide.

You have a bias.

Let's put it like this, gameon, are you prejudiced when it comes to america(ns) or do you have an inclination to side against america(ns) before any issue arises?

If your answer is no (assuming you answer truthfully), then congratulations, you are not -->"BIASED"<-- regardless of any bullshit accusations otherwise.

Just to add something new to the discussion, here's a link worth perusing through: http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=192585

In the article, it discusses the other side of the issue, which is how other Muslims from around the world feels about this issue. In short, the article mentions that most Muslims from around the world don't want the monument to be built. To quote the TV-cheif, Al Rashed,

"I do not think that the majority of Muslims want to build a monument or a place of worship that tomorrow may become a source of pride for the terrorists and their Muslim followers, nor do they want a mosque that will become a shrine for the haters of Islam."

I can understand that sentiment, as this is one of the reasons why I was skeptical of the building of the culture center and mosque. Fearing for the future, I can see that place as a center of protest, rioting, and possibly lynching. My hope is that that doesn’t happen and that the center can be a place of harmony and cultural understanding. However, he also brings up another valid point, that being,

"Moreover, there are no practicing Muslims in the area who need a place to worship, because it is a commercial district."

That quote of his makes sense. With other mosques around the area, is there even a need for a small mosque within the building?

The other issue I wanted to bring up is mentioned somewhere in this article: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/mosque_madness_at_ground_zero_OQ34EB0MWS0lXuAnQau5uL

Some facts about the building itself is worth some consideration:
1. The culture center and mosque is a 13-story building.
2. The culture center and mosque is a 100 million+ dollars project
3. The funding (read: donations) for the culture center and mosque is at best a lukewarm effort.

Certain things strike out at me, such as is there a need for a 13-story building just dedicated to Islamic culture? I dunno, but 13 floors sound a bit excessive to me. The figure of $100,000,000+ for one 13-story building sounds overpriced, and through comparing prices, it actually is overpriced (through my calculations).

As an example, the Chrysler Building took only $20,000,000 to build with 77 floors and the crown terrace that it is so well known for back in 1930. Multiply that $20,000,000 cost by the inflation rate of 12.7 (comparing the CPI of 1930 [$17] to 2010 [$216]), and you get $254,000,000. Compare 77 floors to 13 floors, 77/13 = 6, and therefore 254,000,000/6 = 42,333,333, the cost of the culture center and mosque.

While this might not be the most relevant example or completely accurate, you get the general picture that the construction for one 13-story building is twice as expensive than it’s supposed to be (100,000,000 vs 42,333,333), and that raises red flags. Add to the fact that their efforts to raise funds (read: securities) has not been met with great success tells us that either the demand for the building is low, people and organizations are reconsidering their decisions, or something’s not quite right.

My CPI figures came from this website: http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Rate/HistoricalInflation.aspx

Personal attacks are unwarranted in Serious Discussion, and I'll warn you to refrain from such in future instances.



I misunderstood initially and thought that you were saying he was biased because he wasn't American. However, my point still stands, I refer to Americans in the third-person and I wouldn't consider myself biased.

Sounds like they're crying wolf. How would this be a source of pride in any other way than it being an attempt at trying to bridge the gap between demographics? As for it being a shrine, I can't think of a community center as a place where someone is buried, or a place to pay homage to someone negative and deserving veneration. I'm sure the facilities would be re-purposed if it turned out that bad.



Wasn't there another quote that said only 20% of all practicing Muslims in the area have a place to worship?







I don't think many people who aren't practicing would be comfortable touring another facility, especially since this one will be so open to everyone. Which would be necessary in helping people understand everything that's been outlined before.



It doesn't look like you're taking into account other prices such as land usage and leasing.

I'm pretty sure the 100mUSD price tag takes care of not just the construction, but other such necessities you need taken care of when building/running something.

All sorts of zoning and licensing non-sense had to go into planning this type of facility, and I'm sure the price tag takes care of it all.

And so, the plot thickens. Seriously, this is one of the most amusing things to happen in new york in a long fucking while.



And the resources they use for construction, and the way they want it constructed. It seems pretty unfair to compare this to an old ass building and say, "this is what it should cost", especially since there may be variables we're oblivious to. As far as the cost of construction goes, I see nothing here that warrants being alarmed about this.

The article that mentioned the cost was amusing as hell. It actually felt like one of the protesters was writing it. Oh, what a cunt that writer is.

[quote=”Space Cowboy”]Sounds like they're crying wolf. How would this be a source of pride in any other way than it being an attempt at trying to bridge the gap between demographics? As for it being a shrine, I can't think of a community center as a place where someone is buried, or a place to pay homage to someone negative and deserving veneration. I'm sure the facilities would be re-purposed if it turned out that bad.[/quote]

Who are you to judge their opinion? They live across the globe, and would have different perspectives on 9/11 compared to people living in America. Also note that plenty of Americans and Islamic Americans also feel the same way that the building would be a monument attributed to what the terrorists have accomplished. It’s not the building’s facilities that’s the problem, it’s the entire existence of the building itself so close to the site of tragedy that’s causing the issue.

As for your other quote regarding the facilities inside the building, I’m getting mixed messages. It was first thought of as a culture center, and now a community center with an Islamic emphasis? If this was supposed to primarily bridge the gap between Muslims and nonmuslims, to me it seems like all other facilities are a waste of money. If not, Imam Rauf isn’t doing his part to rectify the misconception, which is another issue altogether.

And as for the purchase of the land, it was bought for roughly 5 million dollars, so no, the cost of land isn’t the issue here. Source: http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20100725/REAL_ESTATE/100729901

And so it requires $100,000,000 to build a 13-story “community center?” With the exception of the swimming pool, all other facilities are not that expensive to construct. Note that the $100,000,000 is merely construction cost, not anything else regarding licensing or the buying of acreage.

I was attempting to be helpful so he could properly explain things to you.

Fundraising just began this past Friday, with $10,000 within the first few minutes. Park51 hadn't been raising money prior to the 27th, as they had to set up a legal non-profit entity and account in order to legally raise and accept donations.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Mosque-Developer-Kicks-off-Fundraising-with-a-Quick-10K-101679563.html

As for its location, it isn't as highly developed as the media is spinning it to be... There's an adult store and gambling center just a few minutes walk away. If at all possible, I'd encourage you to visit and see for yourself just what kind of property this center would be surrounded by. Yes, it is a commercial area, but it's not like you're going to be finding huge corporation headquarters or high-end stores nearby.

Not like that you weren't. Also, if you bothered to read my reply to Guilty, you'd know that I did understand.

My comment came prior to the post, and I did say sometimes.