Debate on Mosque & Cultural Center near 9/11 grounds

I am all for the mosque going up anywhere it'd probably make US relations with the Middle East a little less tense. But people have to realize that America is not a nation of equal rights or freedom of religion. If you aren't white and earning an income of $60,000 per year or more than good luck.

So when the official website says it will house "a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community" they're just lying out their asses?

link: http://www.park51.org/facilities.htm

What I think kaimax doesn't want is for people to refer to the whole thing as a mosque. As far as I see on their site, it's just a community center with part of it having mosque shit.

Edit:



After hearing all this shit about that place and the people bitching, that right there is fucking amusing.

No matter how you cut it, a Mosque type thingy being built that near is not a well thought out idea and is only likely to do the exact opposite of good.

Which is bad.

And as stated. Since there is already one there, what is the point in making something new, when there is already something there that can serve similar purposes and NOT raise a big stink over being built.

Cause you'll have the people who actually have reason to be hurt by this getting all caught up again. And then you'll have the bigots making everything worse.

And then the extreme of the other side will get into it. And it'll be like if Black Panthers meet KKK.

I do believe the reason they are building another is because they have run out of room in their existing locations. Expanding is a natural tendency, is it not?



Wait, what? At which point would the extreme of the other side (which I assume is Islam) come into this? If you're saying that if the mosque were built, the bigotry of those in opposition would cause the extremist Muslims would come out of the woodwork to...uh, bomb things? If you mean the reverse, that they would be incensed that the mosque were not built, wouldn't that be an argument for building the structure?

Starbucks.



Fantastic idea!



Truth.



See your last quote. This is to put emphasis on the fact that 1.6 billion muslims do not equal approx. 10k fanatical extremists. To put a line between what should be accepted as religion and what is not taught to a majority of the believers.



This puts the distinction of what is right with Islam and what is not part of the majority of beliefs and put into action into the public eye. Only the blind will not understand the difference.



There is no reason to think it would be for anything other than education and fostering tolerance, if not good relations between Americans and Muslims.

As I said before, the location is vital to encouraging Americans (more importantly the ignorant, bigoted ones) to distinguish between those of the faith and the extremists, and to accept the former as people who should be respected for their beliefs.

1. Mosque like building? you're now starting to sound like those Bigots themselves. In the end a Community center will still look like a Community Center.
It won't have a dome, it won't have a large megaphone, it won't be a mosque.

In the end it would function like a small chapel in buildings.. you can't call those small chapels "churches" can you.

2. You mean the MAsjid manhattan that can only fit 20% of All Lower Manhattan worshipers? Like tegumi said, they're expanding the availability for those worshipers.

in Masjid Manhattan, worshipers cannot even do their obligatory Friday prayers, just because there's no room, by making 1 or 2 floors madeshifted into "praying floors" it will solve that problem.

I'm just going to say my piece and leave.

They're making a community center out of an area that was already a mosque and has been there for many years. This community center will just happen to contain a mosque which I'm guessing so the people already using the one that's already been there don't have to find another place to worship.

This community center is also open to anyone and everyone. Now, I believe the mosque they're building this place out of would have been closed down long ago if there was no Muslim community to use it. I actually decided to visit the place today (and will do so again at the earlier opportunity) and from what I could see, it really could use a fix-up anyway.

Now, the fact that anyone's having a problem with this shows (and they have demonstrated such) that they have a problem with Islam in general. I could be wrong about everyone who opposes this mosque, but that what I've gotten out of this issue so far.

This issue isn't really as big as everyone's making it out to be. The Mosque isn't the central part of this community center project and if anything will probably be the smallest part, but since everyone is still hyper-sensitive about 9/11 and the fact that the whack-jobs who did are Muslim, they have to get into a sort of bitch fit over anything the Muslims are doing.

These people need to calm the fuck down and shut the fuck up already. Not to mention that New York has bigger fish to worry about, like say I dunno.. THE FUCKING GOVERNOR ELECTIONS COMING UP! REMEMBER THAT, PEOPLE?!

The people putting up this community center have a legal right to do. Not every Muslim on the face of the fucking planet is a terrorist and i think we've gotten so deep into this shit that we've forgotten that ANYONE can be a terrorist.

So leave the people alone already and concentrate your efforts on something that's actually worth the time, like deciding who's going to run New York state for the next four or so years.

Peace.

I don't think anyone in this thread is really interested in the design of the building, and I don't think it's relevant to this topic.

Also, in one of your posts in this very thread, you quoted the main Park51 site:



Again, are the visionaries of Park51 lying out of their asses?



I can understand that, but the argument that is going on in this thread is about a mosque Even if its within a building that will serve other purposes, there is no denying there will be a mosque.



Especially considering NY Gov't's financial issues.

Are you really so stupid that you can't understand what he means, or are you just nitpicking for the hell of it? It will not be a "proper" Mosque, as there is no place to build a fucking Dome of the Rock anywhere[Edit: Wait, Dome of the Rock isn't a Mosque... but w/e], but without having a name equivalent to "Chapel" it says Mosque, a small fucking Mosque.



I agree that there is no arguing that there will be a Mosque but...



The discussion is about the Mosque AND the Cultural Center, but the Community/Culture Center is the main part of Park51, it's not ONLY a Mosque as people seems to believe.

Now if the Mosque in question were to have a minaret-tower and screaming prayers at 6AM every morning I would understand that people would be annoyed by it, now it seems it won't have that, so everything should be fine right? But no, it's to close to Ground Zero. From what I understand you can't see Ground Zero from Park51 (I suppose that the few buildings in-between blocks the view), not to mention that the Community Center will - among a lot of other good stuff like schools and daycares - have a memorial site for 9/11. And if the Muslim Community also needs another Mosque to be able to fit all their worshipers they should be allowed to build it wherever they damn please.

I've said it once and I'll say it again: Muslim does NOT equal Terrorist, so just fucking leave them be.

Geez, how ignorant and just plain stupid can people get.

Lol, don't make it sound as if I was trying to overcome that prejudice -- I'm not that great of a person. I didn't put in any effort to get over my bigotry. Being forced to live amongst them is what made me realize that they weren't all evil, which is why I sincerely believe that this building could help ease the tension between the Muslim-American and Manhattan communities.

People who already hold a grudge against Muslims don't want to hear what others have to say about Islam. They won't open their hearts or minds to anything else, because, like you have said, they have this irrational fear and hatred of them. People stuck in that mindset need a slap in the face to wake up from it, and this center could provide that reality check for them.



I have to ask because I'm not quite sure, but is this a rhetorical question? By justifying the extremists' hatred towards America, we're only encouraging them to be more destructive. They pay no mind to any country's laws, nor are they easily prosecuted. Just think about how much of a field day they must be having by watching all this negative coverage.

Compare that to the vocal minority of the American people who are against this. Even if this center's construction only serves to worsen their hatred and prejudice, that doesn't change the fact that they're law-abiding citizens. In the event that they do lash out in violence, at least we know that we have a government that will prosecute them for it.

Neither situation is pleasant, but I think the better option to be quite clear.

1. I said Mosque like building because it is going to have the services of a mosque but isn't an 'actual' mosque as you guys have put it.

It fits, it's accurate. And it still works.

2. In a very close vicinity of each other? Wouldn't the more economical and better solution would be to place it in an area that would provide easier access for a portion of the people that have to travel a bit of a ways away.

Expanding is nice. But you don't want to expand right next to each other. If you have a building on one side of a town, you put it on the other side of town if you expand. Or do I need to explain business practices to you guys?

Not a business.

It is.

You could try to argue that it isn't, but you'd be wrong.

When all your clients are on the same side of town, why make them go out of their way for service?

I heard that the prayer floors are not the main attractions; basically meaning that because of this, you can't call it a mosque or mosque-like. There may be an area of the facilities dedicated to worship, but I believe that it's open to the public so that visitors can better understand what is going on with those of the faith. Cultural learning center fits way better than mosque or mosque-like.

The center is going for tax exempt status, meaning it's going to be free. They aren't selling anything. Not a business. Don't pull that 'religion is a business' schtick here, because this is more than just teaching about the religion.

Common misconception.

A business can't be a business unless it's out for a profit.

Sure, let's concede that it is a business. So? They'll be non-profit. I don't see why they should adhere to any prudent business practice (not that being non-profit is the only reason "proper" business practice doesn't matter, the next one follows).

I just checked out their site and they mention that,


Yes, purposely in close vicinity to the others. Could they have found another spot somewhere in lower manhattan? Fuck if I know, and I don't really care.

It's hard to imagine it being that difficult to find a spot if you've been looking seven years.

But I thought it was suppose to be a community center!

Expanding and making things more convenient for the "growing population of muslims in lower manhattan" hardly seems to negate the fact that it still will be a community center.

I'm curious, are your thoughts on this similar to the many protesters with the mentality that this somehow spits in the face of the victims of 9/11, or this disgraces/disrespects them?

It does when what they are talking about is accommodating them in a religious sense.

Which it would have to be or the content of that statement wouldn't make sense.

I'm more of the opinion that this wasn't very well thought out.

And that while a good portion of people are not genuinely hurt by it, there are still others who were greatly affected and can understandably be hurt by it.

Coupling the two together just makes it seem like a bad idea to me.

It doesn't affect me either way, just my opinion that it's a bad idea.