Debate on Mosque & Cultural Center near 9/11 grounds

An act like that would lead to the death of mankind in thermonuclear warfare. If you "eagerly wanna see" that, then you're a moron.

I agree with everything up to this point, but...



This is the way I'm interpreting the quoted statement (I may be over simplifying): "Americans hate Muslims. Americans don't want to mingle with Muslims. Therefore, Americans do not want to tolerate a Muslim Cultural Center/Mosque where mingling may occur. The controversy in NYC can be explained through the aforementioned reasoning."

The problem with this is there are mosques built all over the US. There might be minor issues here and there we may never hear about, but they are still allowed to build where ever they please. This disproves your theory that Americans trying to hinder the Muslims progress just because they hate Muslims. The Americans are angry because of another factor and I think you're having a problem of adding this factor into your equation when it comes to the issue.

You may say all lumping everyone in the Muslim faith together is wrong, but looking at the overall picture, people will view that they've all fallen from the same tree.

For example, in a professional workplace, if one employee screws up, in the eye of the customer the whole business has failed to provide the service they've promised.

Is it true? No. But is it human? Yes.

If you really wish to make a difference, we can continue with my analogy:

If a business wants to get back in good favors with the customer again, they often comply with the customer's irrational demands instead of plowing through with their own logic. This would only incite the customer further into thinking the company is worthless even if the corporation is in the right.

What I'm trying to get at is this: If the Imam was really making an effort to bridge the gap between the two factions, he would have found another place.

Again, I am not saying Americans are being rational, and what I said above is the action the Imam should have taken. I am just writing to let you know that he is unintentionally rubbing salt on a wound that hasn't been closed yet, which is also the missing factor in your equation.



I think it's just normal human behavior. Opinions.

I find this entire controversy disgusting. People have been constantly asking "Where are all the moderate Muslims?" Well, here they are, and now they're getting venom thrown at them while being mistakenly called radicals.

These Muslims are American citizens. They simply want to build a mosque and cultural centre on land that they acquired legally, and they are perfectly entitled to do that.

On another note, some nutters from Texas (called "Freedom for America" or something like that) came all the way up to Connecticut to protest at a mosque a few towns down from me. They stand outside chanting shit like "God hates Muslims" and "You're going to hell", and they even call children "murderers". That just makes me absolutely livid.

Just because you are an American Citizen does not exclude you from being expected to show a little tact when deciding where to build something. I can respect religion; the Islamic faith isn't something I have a problem with. The problem I have is that these men and women want to build a mosque right next door to a site that saw the death of 3000 people, a mosque that represents the same religion those terrorists subscribed to.*

Now it's not any good Muslims fault that a few radicals decided to blow up all those people, but for the sake of not making the already dim view Americans have of Islam worse, pick somewhere else to build it.

[size=10]*I am aware of the differences between Radical Islam and your normal everyday Islam, but it's just a different shade of the same color.[/h]

Practically yes, I wouldn't go as far as to say that Americans in general have a problem with Muslims, but somehow it feels like those that would have a problem with the construction of a Muslim Cultural Center and a Mosque two blocks from Ground Zero are the ones that would have a problem with their children hanging out with/dating one too.



I understand perfectly why those that protest don't want the building to proceed, but I still think that their reason is a bullshit one.



Indeed they will, I understand why they will do it too, but this generalization is one of the biggest problems with out societies today. It's like believing that all men are rapists just because a few are, or that all catholic priests are pedophiles. I'ts not true yet people think it is, and that's a huge problem that we have to do something against.



Yes that would be the easiest way to end this, no doubt. But it wouldn't do nothing to bridge the gap, having the Center approved of will not help anything either but the discussion that is ongoing now will, by getting all this attention just because of a building will probably have at least a few understand how stupid it is. And a few more when they realize that the building of the Center didn't change anything.

There is only one way to bridge this gap and that is through interaction with each other, otherwise both sides will just sit in their own corners feeling hateful and spread more prejudices around them.



The thing is that this shouldn't be any salt in anyones wounds if the connection "Muslim" = "Terrorist" didn't exist, a connection that in reality is more or less complete bullshit.

Indeed, but I wouldn't consider someone "inconsiderate" just because they failed to accurately gauge bigotry.

Despite any intentions to the contrary, I can only see this getting ugly in some form.

I do respect your opinion on this, but I have to disagree. Here's my 2 cents, take it or leave it:



9/11 was the result of gross cross-cultural misunderstanding and prejudice... So why intensify the very cause of our grief by denying the construction of this center? By impeding its construction, we're only justifying the actions taken by religious extremists and doing a disservice to those who were injured or killed by 9/11.

What? There were muslim victims in the september 11 attack too? Their families should start doing that thing the others are doing: stereotyping the shit out of islam (they're terrorists, OR they remind us of terrorists, OR they have some associations with terrorists).

Boo-fucking-hoo. I wonder if anyone has made a satire of this yet. Preferably with that catholic priest molestation thing.

Thanks for being the voice of reason here. I'm sorry to hear about all the hate that is happening around this "ground zero mosque" thing, never mind that it's NOT at GZ, and NOT a mosque. I just read this today at gawker about how the anti side harassed and abused some random black dude who was just passing by the rally. Hateful. Racist. Stupid. Embarrassing. Depressing. Stuff like this makes me wanna go all RAEG at those idiots.

Nice comment video




back on topic:

I don't have much to say since, some of the people in here have already expressed the same opinion and I'm not quite good at SD, but those protesters are taking it a bit too far.

Facts that I got till now:
-It was supposed to be named Cordoba, but it was changed to Park 51
-It's not mosque (for god sakes)
-It's a Community center, that has a "praying room" which we usually call a Mushola (eventhough if you translate it means mosque too) since it's smaller.
-It's at least 2 Blocks away, which means it's not on "Ground Zero".

Fact's that I need to know:
-How many Mosques's are in manhattan?
-where's the most closest mosque near Ground Zero?
-Do they Recite the Adzan publicly if a Mosque is build in the USA?

Lots. In fact, there has been a mosque 4 blocks from ground zero since...well, the 1970s. That's waaaaay before 9/11. That's even BEFORE the WTC was built.

The azan...not sure about that. In my experience, usually no, or at least, I don't hear it.

edit: watched the Olberman vid. Terrorist chefs and point guards, lololololol.

But yeah, the negative reaction towards this community center is making me so disappointed in America. I...I think I'm gonna go cry in this corner now.

Something I was always told growing up.

"You may not like it, but you have to deal with it."

Seems we'll be reiterating our opinions over and over again so I'll cut out a bunch of points.



Yes, there will be a few (heavy emphasis on the few) who will realize they were wrong, but I also believe that the majority of those who were opposed to the project will gain an even deeper mistrust of Muslims.

Therein lies the problem and the reason why I would have suggested using a bit of tact.



I respect you for overcoming your prejudice, but not everyone is as strong willed. As I have mentioned, and I have a feeling I'll be repeating myself of this fact again, people are generalizing creatures and the way they feel towards Muslims and 9/11 incident is quite understandable, yet irrational.

You mentioned that you don't believe the Imam to be insensitive. Here's the definition of insensitive:



The reason I keep stating that the Imam is being insensitive is because he either doesn't understand natural human behavior, or he just doesn't care. If he did, and he still wished to decrease prejudice of Muslim-Americans, he would have considered a new location. As I have replied to Chlor, by building the prayer center in its current planned location, it will only harden the hate for Muslims of those who are against the building of the prayer center.



I agree, but if you had a choice between what we're justifying by stopping the project, or worsen the detrimental feelings of the Americans by continuing the project, what would you choose?

Food for thought:
Ok, Let's try seeing it not as a LOCATION and RELIGION, but as a SINGLE BUILDING that will be made for the use of ALL New York people



People need to erase the information that the Community Center is not a mosque, so it's not a Center for prayers.

It is stated even in they're website
Facilities
"a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community"

They can just simply scrap this and make it a small praying room "Inside" the community Center, and people will still rant about it.

about insensitivity, like it said, it's going to be 2 blocks away, and in the sea of buildings in Manhattan, most people can't even get a glimpse of it unless you try.
They even include this in their facilities list
"a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all"

If you look at it as a whole, The Islam Community have been taught and always forcing them selves to be literally down to earth and always care and be sensitive about others.

This "insensitivity" reaction is probably "not in their calculation" when they planned to make it. Maybe they thought "Maybe It's far enough, people won't complain, or even connect us to terrorist or 9/11."

A view from a moderate muslim
http://www.blogher.com/park-51-if-you-build-it-they-will-learn

and please read their website again.
http://www.park51.org/faq.htm
http://www.park51.org/more.htm

Following up on the debate, Persondude's posts accurately sums up my own opinion on the matter. I don't see that the Imam is doing whatever he can to smooth relations. Now that I think about it, I really don't care about building a cultural center for the purpose of improving relations even if it was next to ground zero. But, the main issue is that not enough is being done, and if Imam Rauf doesn't start addressing the public, there's not going to be a pretty future ahead. The point about the 4 other mosques within proximity of ground zero kinda makes me doubt the Imam and his intentions.

It's been stated that Imam Rauf is not in the Country, so that will have just to wait.

like I said PArk 51, it's not going to be a Mosque, it's a community center, that will have a praying floor.



Map

wait, besides Masjid Manhattan, what are the other 3.
I've already checked with google maps, and the 3 nearest besides Masjid Manhattan, are places that is not a mosque at all, they're not even assosiated with Islam.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=id&client=firefox-a&hs=GzS&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=mosques+in+manhattan&fb=1&gl=id&hq=mosques&hnear=Manhattan,+New+York,+USA&view=text&ei=UZx0TNaTJYzqvQOrqPieBg&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=more-results&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQtQMwAA

http://www.masjidmanhattan.com/
(HEck you can't even call this a mosque technically)
which is only 3-4 blocks away from GZ, that is already operational since 1970. Why are the people mad now?

Park 51 won't operate as a mosque but as a Community Center, why is it so hard to accept this fact.

Dude, don't bother trying to correct everyone that says this will be a mosque. If they get it wrong, fuck them. Just keep referring to it as a community center.