Debate on Mosque & Cultural Center near 9/11 grounds
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Kaimax wrote...
kawaiiloli wrote...
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/08/report_taliban_using_mosque_co.html“By preventing this mosque from being built, America is doing us a big favor,” a Taliban operative named Zabihullah told the weekly. “It’s providing us with more recruits, donations, and popular support.”
I knew this was going to happen!
hahaha yessssssss
well, this can be one sided, with the "taliban representative" telling the weekly something that the bigots actually want to hear.
and I sense this is just another false information since, You obviously need to keep it in secret if you want to recruit people secretly.... >_>.
But there's also a possibility that IF this is true, The Taliban is using the Community Center on their own without the consent of the Builders of the Community Center, which will always happen in any organization.
EDIT: After some thinking, yes these protesters will lead some confused muslims to the corner and like in the article said, most of them will be scared and then join the taliban just because they don't know how to react and fight back.
The fear of them being treated not as a peaceful individuals made them go to taliban.
Yeah, that's kind of the point. The fact that they can use this issue as a "America HATES ALL OF ISLAM" kind of thing is pretty motivational in the Middle East. People are generally rational. They won't automatically jump to those conclusions without proof. The Taliban can use this as one of those "proofs" that America is evil and hates Islam, we must destroy the infidels, etc etc
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It's like a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" type of situation.
Honestly, if this "community center" was built somewhere else, none of this hubbub and controversy would have happened in the first place. One of the problems is that there seems to be question marks regarding the financing of the Park51 project ($100,000,000 - really?), and there are too many things regarding Imam Rauf and the project that are sparking contradictions.
My hope is that this matter will be resolved through a relocation simply for moral decency and to erase all controversy. Either that, or we better start seeing some more PR from Imam Rauf to explain what's going on. It's gettng ugly.
Honestly, if this "community center" was built somewhere else, none of this hubbub and controversy would have happened in the first place. One of the problems is that there seems to be question marks regarding the financing of the Park51 project ($100,000,000 - really?), and there are too many things regarding Imam Rauf and the project that are sparking contradictions.
My hope is that this matter will be resolved through a relocation simply for moral decency and to erase all controversy. Either that, or we better start seeing some more PR from Imam Rauf to explain what's going on. It's gettng ugly.
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g-money wrote...
It's like a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" type of situation. Honestly, if this "community center" was built somewhere else, none of this hubbub and controversy would have happened in the first place. One of the problems is that there seems to be question marks regarding the financing of the Park51 project ($100,000,000 - really?), and there are too many things regarding Imam Rauf and the project that are sparking contradictions.
My hope is that this matter will be resolved through a relocation simply for moral decency and to erase all controversy. Either that, or we better start seeing some more PR from Imam Rauf to explain what's going on. It's gettng ugly.
It's getting ugly because Faux news and its ilk is making it so. Remember, before it became national news, pretty much everyone in NYC was on board with the project.
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g-money wrote...
Honestly, if this "community center" was built somewhere else, none of this hubbub and controversy would have happened in the first place.I'd like to amend that: Honestly, if people weren't such assholes (this includes the media, but not all who covered this topic though) and didn't make a big deal out of a non-issue, this controversy wouldn't have happened in the first place, and we could have focused on more important business.
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Nekohime wrote...
It's getting ugly because Faux news and its ilk is making it so. Remember, before it became national news, pretty much everyone in NYC was on board with the project.Everyone? Better check your facts. Not everyone was on board for the project. Putting the public outcry aside, not eveyone in the community board agreed with the project.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2010/05/25/nyc_community_board_oks_ground_zero_mosque_plans/
However, I agree that the media centers and politicians picking up on this subject made an already touchy subject into an explosive controversial subject. In a sense, they were the ones to make this a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" situation with people saying the building of the Corboda House is a travesty and insult to others while others saying that if it isn't built, it goes against the values of the USA. And either viewpoint, the terrorists benefit in some way. If the building is built, people say that it's a monument for what the terrorists done, and if it isn't built, it means that American have always been the arrogant SOBs that they've always been as touted by the terrorists.
@Rbz: ninja'd by you, but I agree with what you and Nekohime said about the over-popularization by the media and politics. It's just that not everyone agreed, hence the beginning grounds for controversy.
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Chlor wrote...
Personally I really hope that they'll go through with it.I think that the idea to "promote relations between the Muslim/Islamic community with everyone else and to prove that Islam is not the violent religion it is." are at least a step in the right direction. This might seem like an insensitive act, but why should the Islamic community back down or go hide somewhere just because fundamentalist-terrorists flew a plane through the WTC?
It seems that the general public of the US, and the majority of the non-Islamic world needs to just calm the fuck down and get over their prejudices. As it is now you can't go saying "Allah" or "Muslim" without someone pissing their pants because they think that it equals to terrorism.
Shit, it's not like they'll be forcing people to their services and force everyone in the Ground Zero-area to fall to their knees and pray six times a a day.
I agree, who said in the first place that the terrorist is doing it for the sake of Islam? It's just an intimidation of war from a country leader or so which have died and a lot of innocent people which also have died may be because of him. I think its time to move on, people die everyday and you don't go out killing people for it, right? And because i had a muslim friend in US 20 years ago which is before the 9/11 attack. And for people who did not noticed americans doesn't mean any religion. It's a nation with all kind of religion. And a lot of "americans" died on the 9/11 attack, do people check how many "muslims" died? Christians died? Jews died? Hindus died? And by making a Islamic Center can help people understand what actually happen and make people move on with their live then isn't it OK?
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animefreak_usa
Child of Samael
Saw this on a blog a while ago... thought it would be pertinent to this thread.
Spoiler:
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Takerial
Lovable Teddy Bear
animefreak_usa wrote...
Saw this on a blog a while ago... thought it would be pertinent to this thread.Spoiler:
Obviously cause the Nun outfit looks hawt.
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Kalistean wrote...
animefreak_usa wrote...
Saw this on a blog a while ago... thought it would be pertinent to this thread.Spoiler:
Obviously cause the Nun outfit looks hawt.
Eh...some would argue that depending on the context, both can be oppressed or not oppressed, but that's a topic for another thread.
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Mod Note: I would urge all users to remain on topic, as I have received a report indicating that the discussion has gone slightly off-track at times, especially on a personal level.
Getting back on topic, building a mosque and cultural centre may seem insensitive to some. Quite a few years have passed, but there are still some people who suffer from the pains of the attack, be it the trauma or even the loss of a loved one. Perhaps the intention is to protray a message of forgiveness and to move on, but it might have been misunderstood.
Then again, I am not an American and I do not know for sure the sentiments of most individuals living there. My comments can only be taken with a pinch of salt.
Getting back on topic, building a mosque and cultural centre may seem insensitive to some. Quite a few years have passed, but there are still some people who suffer from the pains of the attack, be it the trauma or even the loss of a loved one. Perhaps the intention is to protray a message of forgiveness and to move on, but it might have been misunderstood.
Then again, I am not an American and I do not know for sure the sentiments of most individuals living there. My comments can only be taken with a pinch of salt.
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What I don't get is why offense is being taken into this at all. Yes, the U.S. was attacked by a religious group, but not necessarily all of those people that are Muslim are terrorists. It's like, the Beatles fans. Some people loved them since they were young, others are posers who only like 2 or three songs but claim to love them altogether! But the attitude portrayed by our own extremists are terrible, harassing Muslim people who will most likely have nothing to do with the religious extremists in their home country.
What I don't understand is, why harass the ones in America..? They came here to rid themselves from being persecuted by those who still follow their old ways. If the extremists we have here give that much of a damn they should go and fight else where!
Only reason I would be against this mosque is to protect those who practice in them from being hurt by extremist idiots who want nothing but "The American Way".
You know, land of the free! Unless you're Black, Asian, Hispanic, Muslim, Atheist. Because we live with liberty under god. (Which really should be removed from the pledge, but I'm just glad by law I don't have to say it if I don't want to.)
What I don't understand is, why harass the ones in America..? They came here to rid themselves from being persecuted by those who still follow their old ways. If the extremists we have here give that much of a damn they should go and fight else where!
Only reason I would be against this mosque is to protect those who practice in them from being hurt by extremist idiots who want nothing but "The American Way".
You know, land of the free! Unless you're Black, Asian, Hispanic, Muslim, Atheist. Because we live with liberty under god. (Which really should be removed from the pledge, but I'm just glad by law I don't have to say it if I don't want to.)
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DosMilSiete wrote...
What I don't get is why offense is being taken into this at all. Without searching the rest of the thread for the same thing I will say, I think the controversy might be fanned by some Republicans looking to appeal to single-issue voters in the upcoming midterm elections. (Apologies and a look of approval if this point has been brought up before)
Remember when Barack Obama was dealing with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright issue back in 2008? And how a huge issue was raised on the point that Obama attended a church headed by Wright, who made controversial comments regarding the September 11 attacks? And now, during the entire Ground Zero Mosque issue, people are often seen accusing Obama of advancing a Muslim agenda. It is amazing how quickly the voting public forgets, as a recent poll conducted by the Pew Research Center shows that "[a] substantial and growing number of Americans say that Barack Obama is a Muslim," which is patently false.
As the U.S. Midterm Election comes along on November 2nd, enough House, Senate, and Governor positions are up for grabs to either further strengthen the Democrat majority or let the Republicans regain strength. I believe it is not a coincidence that such an issue, that is perhaps not cared at all by the actual residents of the American cultural center that is New York, is picked up by media across the country as an effort by advocates of the Republican Party to remind voters of the sentiments felt on the day of the attacks, which is fear, anger, and patriotism, all of them embraced by the Republican Party.
As elements of nationalism and xenophobia are brought into this issue's debate, Republican candidates promising a better future for "us" and a worse future for "them:" less jobs shipped abroad, stricter penalties for violators of illegal immigration, boosting expenditures for national security, etc, etc, stand to benefit from this controversy.
And maybe because I am a cynic, but it always seems like statistically insignificant issues like this are picked up and magnified every time election time rolls around, and once Election Day passes, are quickly forgotten by the public.
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This might just be the alcohol talking, but the general public needs to get that stick out of their asses and stop being so fucking uptight and stop dwelling on bullshit that happened in the past. As I already have stated numerous times in this thread the muslims that want this Community Center/Mosque to be build are most likely not terrorists trying to build a monument to celebrate bringing down the Twin Towers.
Although I have begun to change stand on this matter, all this bullshit-attention this has been given have succeed in making it a bad move to build this. People will be afraid to go there because they'll be pointed out as terroristic extremists, and I know that I'd be afraid to go there simply because some anti-muslim jackass would beat the crap out of me when I left the place. And on the same note these protests only add fuel to the flames for the terroristic-extremists that blow shit up for being so oppressed. But idk, at the same time I think that if they start building the thing this shitstorm will have blown over by the time that the project is finished.
Although I have begun to change stand on this matter, all this bullshit-attention this has been given have succeed in making it a bad move to build this. People will be afraid to go there because they'll be pointed out as terroristic extremists, and I know that I'd be afraid to go there simply because some anti-muslim jackass would beat the crap out of me when I left the place. And on the same note these protests only add fuel to the flames for the terroristic-extremists that blow shit up for being so oppressed. But idk, at the same time I think that if they start building the thing this shitstorm will have blown over by the time that the project is finished.
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CGrascal
Infamous
Here I thought that this country had the freedom of religion and separation of church and state. I'm glad to know that I was totally wrong. Seriously! Are conservative idiots that angry with any religion that isn't generic Christian variation, either Catholic or Protestantism?
Actually, I think it's only because its a Muslim mosque that wants to be built. If it was Buddhism or something like that, this wouldn't even show up in the news.
Actually, I think it's only because its a Muslim mosque that wants to be built. If it was Buddhism or something like that, this wouldn't even show up in the news.
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g-money wrote...
@Neostriker: that's exactly why I doubt this building is being built with honest intentions. I read a couple of articles, and I'm guessing that the Imam Rauf decided to build a mosque and cultural center as close as possible to ground zero to "promote relations between the Muslim/Islamic community with everyone else and to prove that Islam is not the violent religion it is." However, that's like having someone build a German cultural center right next to the concentration camps where the Holocaust occurred. No one in Germany was insensitive enough to do that, why should Imam Rauf be any different?
Thank you for answering me. Imam Rauf's reason is total bullshit. Your latter analogy wasn't really good. Well then, I'm against the Ground Zero mosque.
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Brittany
Director of Production
Normally I wouldn't do a video response to this section, but this guy said my opinion so well that I can't word it any better. The weird thing is he and I don't always have similar opinions, and I often find him annoying.
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Ziggy wrote...
Normally I wouldn't do a video response to this section, but this guy said my opinion so well that I can't word it any better. The weird thing is he and I don't always have similar opinions, and I often find him annoying.http://www.youtube.com/watch.*?v=oPC.*?
Perhaps you're realizing his wisdom. Still though, it appears that Imam Rauf purposely chose a site as close as possible to Ground Zero to build his mosque. It would be understandable if it was by coincidence the most compatible site for his blueprints, but to specifically pick that site, is really just trying to provoke people.
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Kaimax
Best Master-San
Neostriker wrote...
Perhaps you're realizing his wisdom. Still though, it appears that Imam Rauf purposely chose a site as close as possible to Ground Zero to build his mosque. It would be understandable if it was by coincidence the most compatible site for his blueprints, but to specifically pick that site, is really just trying to provoke people. 1. It was not the Imam who chose the site, he only wanted to build a [size=20]COMMUNITY CENTER[/h] near his neighborhood, he already has a Mosque 10 blocks from Ground Zero, and he already literally told to the media that [size=20][b]IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A MOSQUE[/h].
2. The Land was already BOUGHT BEFORE the planning of this Community center by Sharif El Gamal owner of SoHo Properties who baought the land, who is also one of the Imam's lower Manhattan congregation. When they finally planned to make this COMMUNITY CENTER, he apparently offered that private land for the sake of the project, cause that's the only land he has in Lower Manhattan that fits the criteria.
(size fail,it seems that I cannot to close the code properly)
JUST PLEASE READ THIS FACTS that I just posted down here.
Taken from Cordoba Initiative's FAQ page: http://www.cordobainitiative.org/
Food for thought, and maybe a "Fact straightener", for those who's actually opposing on baseless hate and racism.
Spoiler:
Facts about Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf, taken from the sa,e site
Spoiler:
and Remember Moderate Muslims should not be generalized as the same people who still holds tightly the "old way" of Islam (read : conservatives)
So, don't you try to talk about it's connection.
some nice articles for the brain
http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/08/22/park-51-and-fear-mongering/
http://open.salon.com/blog/anushayspoint/2010/08/18/park_51_the_ground_zero_mosque_is_not_a_mosque
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Kaimax
Best Master-San
mesumguy wrote...
still I don't think build mosque near the site is good idea[size=20] IT'S NOT A DAMN FREAKING MOSQUE FOR GOD SAKES[/h]
do I need to make that more than size 20, so you can read it more EASILY?
*sigh* over 9000 facepalms...
